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hydraulic lifter problems
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bowtie44s
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Joined: 13 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:24 am    Post subject: hydraulic lifter problems Reply with quote

Hey guys, first post here. I built a 454 with tbi and have a couple issues with it. I will only ask my most urgent for now. I have an edelbrock 2162 hydraulic cam and am using the stock studs rockers and push rods. All 8 exhaust valves seem to adjust fine (1/2 turn past 0 lash) Whenever I try to go past 0 lash on the intake valves it hangs a valve open which, needless to say, makes me lose all compression. I replaced all 8 intake lifters which made no difference. I can't push the lifter with the push rod, the cup stays right at the top. This is my first hydraulic lifter build, I like solid lifters. I can't put solid lifters on a hydraulic cam can I?

Sorry for all the questions, any help would be great.
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clay
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1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What sort of spring pressure do you have? Are you trying to adjust while running? I had an all stock 4.3 that didn't have enough spring pressure to compress the oil out of the lifters unless I set them while running. These sat overnight and it still had no compression. Setting them running worked like a charm - messy though. Welcome to Smokemup! Clay
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af2
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Location: grassvalley, ca
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1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clay wrote:
What sort of spring pressure do you have? Are you trying to adjust while running? I had an all stock 4.3 that didn't have enough spring pressure to compress the oil out of the lifters unless I set them while running. These sat overnight and it still had no compression. Setting them running worked like a charm - messy though. Welcome to Smokemup! Clay


X2 go slow and let each lifter stabilize before going to the next one.
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bowtie44s
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have done it with the engine off and engine running. I have the rocker clips so its not that messy. I loosen them up until they clack and tighten them down until they quit, any more and the idle goes down and never comes back up and sometimes kills the engine. It doesn't matter how slow I go.

I'm not sure what my spring pressure is, I ordered new heads assembled and they asked if i was running a roller or hydraulic for the valve springs. Why are the exhaust ok though? Should I not be able to push the lifter with the push rod?
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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont have a solution to your problem but i have ran into it before. i ended up just setting them to 0 lash and calling it good. no problems after that.

the exhaust probably are not ok either. slightly leaking exhaust valves are not as noticeable as the intake. at least, thats been my experiences with adjusting valves.

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It seems we can look at our magical Balls and come up with a fix?

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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending upon the year of the donor vehicle you may have non-adjustable rocker arms. You have to change the rocker arm studs out to set the lash correctly. They where used on all of Chevy's big blocks with roller hydraulic tappets (Gen VI and up).

Big Dave
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bowtie44s
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is out of an 88... mark iv

I guess I will leave it at 0 lash, its just a little noisy. What would putting solid lifters on that cam do? I dont want a solid lifter cam in this application because I dont want that big of a cam. I think the smallest lift solid lifter cam is like .520.
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clay
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1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure about the exhaust's being good and the intake's giving trouble. BBC's do run different length pushrods on each so maybe you don't have the correct length pushrods on the intakes. I would think this is a remote possibility though but something to look at. Once a lifter is full of oil it's very difficult to push the oil back out.
Another possible way to solve the problem is to basically start over. You could pull lifters out, take them apart individually, clean them then put everything back together. Then you can collapse the lifter when you adjust the valves. Then it should pump them up to where they need to be when the engine fires. I know people do run solid lifters on hydraulic cams. Try searching on Chevelles.com in the performance section. Probably find more info. on roller cams but flat tappet should be more forgiving to swap to solid lifters on a hydraulic cam. Clay

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af2
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1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bowtie44s wrote:
I have done it with the engine off and engine running. I have the rocker clips so its not that messy. I loosen them up until they clack and tighten them down until they quit, any more and the idle goes down and never comes back up and sometimes kills the engine. It doesn't matter how slow I go.

I'm not sure what my spring pressure is, I ordered new heads assembled and they asked if i was running a roller or hydraulic for the valve springs. Why are the exhaust ok though? Should I not be able to push the lifter with the push rod?


I do not know how to beak up a post so bear with me.

I do each cylinder 1 at a time and let the thing be happy then go one to the next. Some times I have to rev the thing a couple times then let idle before going on. ( difference in oil pressure)


NOW FWIW my son had his outer K-Motion spring break and I went through hell before we pulled the springs to check seat pressure and found the problem of 3 outer springs in 2 pieces running on the damper springs.
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bowtie44s
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I messed with them some more today. I put an indicator on them. I can crank the exhaust valves probably a whole turn and it opens the valve then bleeds back off at a rate of maybe .003 per second and goes back to 0 so I left them at a 1/2 turn. If I tighten the intake valves past 0 it starts opening the valve and may bleed off .002 but thats it. I left it sit for 10 min and it stayed right there.

As clay said, I can take them out, collapse them and start over but how to I collapse them? Just take them apart and dump the oil? Then would I just adjust them to 1/2 turn past 0 lash prime the pump and see if the valves are open? I think as stated above I must have the wrong length push rods or something is wrong. I should put roller rockers in I know but I wouldn't think that would make a difference on this.

You guys are very knowledgable and I appreciate your input.
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have flat tappets you can collapse them in a bench vise . Also if you have flat tappets you don't have non-adjustable rocker arms unless you are using a newer Peanut Port head off of a Gen VI block.

Big Dave
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bowtie44s
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are not peanut ports. They're 300cc 2.25 intake 1.88 exhaust. Decent size heads. They are adjustable rockers. How do I collapse them in the bench vise? Just push the plunger with something the size of a push rod? Is there not a check ball that has to be released?

When I put them back in and adjust the valves if i prime the oil pump will it pump them up to where they need to be and stop with out opening the valves? I know it will be harder to find zero lash with no oil but I can do it.
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plunger inside can be compressed with a quarter inch drive socket that will fit inside the lifter bore (it has to clear the spring retainer clip as well). Once collapsed you can work them by hand (air is compressible oil isn't). The oil in the lifter will be forced out the top of the lifter (which is how the motor feeds the top end with oil). So provided you give the oil a place to go you will not have any problem with the check ball.

To reinstall them just soak them in oil over night as if you were installing them new again. With a flat lifter once they have been broken in they must stay with the lobe that they are mated to. So you have to keep them in their correct order as they soak (this means can not use an old coffee can to soak them in like I would normally do when they are new).

Big Dave
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clay
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1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would try to collapse them in a vice first - that's by far the easiest thing to do. If that doesn't work, then pop out the wire lock or the snap ring that holds the lifter together. Spray it out with brake cleaner, carb cleaner, etc. and put it back together. Do one at a time as I think they are sorted and assembled to a particular clearance to take care of manufacturing tolerance stackup. I never soak or pump hydraulic lifters before intstallation. I put break in lube on the bottom and oil the sides. When I prime the engine after assembly I always spin it several revolutions while maintaining pressure to prelube everything. I still can't get my mind around what's happening though. Spring should be the same exhaust and intake, lifters should be the same on both, rockers should be the same (I would think stock should be fine with your cam). Pushrods are different of course but since you can go 1/2 turn past 0 lash the rocker isn't bottoming out like the non adjustable system Dave mentioned. What weight oil are you running? It really shouldn't matter though since the exhausts work. I'm about out of ideas.....Clay
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Paul P
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1971 Chevrolet Chevelle

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oil system is untouched or did you have work done to this block?
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