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Gradual Build
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Chevy Power
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Joined: 07 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:02 am    Post subject: Gradual Build Reply with quote

I currently Live in a 650 Sq/Ft Condo. There is no Garage and there is NO working on a Car in the Parking lot.......... PERIOD!!

Here's where it gets good:

I have a 4-Bolt Main 350 Block that has been Clearenced for a 383 Kit and bored .040 Over IN MY LIVING ROOM! It's Okay though. the Block is VERY Clean. I keep a thin layer of oil on the exposed surfaces and it has not rusted at all. I've had the block ready to go for more than a year. It sits on a Stand with a very wide pan underneath so that my carpet isn't affected. Once i start to build it, i will lay down a large tarp and i intend to use as many clean, new parts as i can. Once Built, the Engine will go out the sliding glass doors to my patio, where i will wheel it out to the parking lot and transport it to the place where i will install in the recipient car.

Here are the Questions:

I didn't have the Block Line Bored. I don't know FOR SURE that all the caps are in the original locations. I asked the Machinist about Line Boring the block and he said it would affect my engine's Geometry. He Recommended against it. The Main journals and caps look pristine. Would you guys get it line bored, or not? I'm an Army Machinist and learned Machine Shop in the Navy, so if i need an Instrument to take some measurements, i'm up to the job. One thing i don't know much about is block Machining.

If i build the Engine, I don't have any way of Testing it out of a car. Would it be okay to let a complete engine that has never been run sit for 6 months or more? My Main concern here is that all the assembly lube would settle out and firing it up would be a bad thing after all that time without the cam being protected by the thicker oil. Since i'm probably going to use a Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft, this has been a concern of mine. I could put in a Roller and wouldn't have to worry about that, but i haven't made that decision yet. the Difference is about $500.

My block has been Decked .008. Will this affect any thing other than my Compression Ratio? What i'm talking about it the Fit of the Intake Manifold, the Length of my Pushrods, or the Fit of my Heads.

I'm going to use a Tri-Power with 3 Rochester 2BBL Carbs. Is there anything that i should consider about my bottom end with that in Mind?

I'll probably bug the hell out of you guys if you answer my questions. This is just a warning. I want to get this engine right.
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Gradual Build Reply with quote

Chevy Power wrote:

...

I didn't have the Block Line Bored. I don't know FOR SURE that all the caps are in the original locations. I asked the Machinist about Line Boring the block and he said it would affect my engine's Geometry. He Recommended against it. The Main journals and caps look pristine. Would you guys get it line bored, or not? I'm an Army Machinist and learned Machine Shop in the Navy, so if i need an Instrument to take some measurements, i'm up to the job. One thing i don't know much about is block Machining.

It doesn't effect the geometry. It migh affect the rear main seal depending upon the boring bar. If you have the caps mismatched it has to be line honed to corect any mismatch. Otherwise you risk loosing the engine to a bearing failure as soon as you crank it up.

If i build the Engine, I don't have any way of Testing it out of a car. Would it be okay to let a complete engine that has never been run sit for 6 months or more? My Main concern here is that all the assembly lube would settle out and firing it up would be a bad thing after all that time without the cam being protected by the thicker oil.

No no issue here just be sure to prelube the engine before you install the distributor and crank it up. There are tools for sale for about $25 that combined with a half inch drill motor will prime your oil system.

Since i'm probably going to use a Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft, this has been a concern of mine. I could put in a Roller and wouldn't have to worry about that, but i haven't made that decision yet. the Difference is about $500.

Don't run a flat tappet cam. Pay to convert it over to a roller cam with retro fit hydraulic rollers. Flat tappets are dead and have been for over 25 years now. Motor oil will no longer work with flat tappet cams and was changed back in 2003 to remove the additives a flat tappet cam needs to survive (DZZP is missing).

My block has been Decked .008. Will this affect any thing other than my Compression Ratio? What i'm talking about it the Fit of the Intake Manifold, the Length of my Pushrods, or the Fit of my Heads.

You should always measure your push rod length. Custom pushrods are available in any length but off the shelf push rods are offered in 0.050" increments. The 0.008" deck clean-up will not effect your compression that much and shouldn't have any other affect with the exception of valve to piston clearance and since you are running a hydraulic cam that shouldn't be a issue either (but always check to be sure).

I'm going to use a Tri-Power with 3 Rochester 2BBL Carbs. Is there anything that i should consider about my bottom end with that in Mind?

No. The bottom end cares less what is above it. Money invested in the bottom end buys you reliability, not horse power. A Tri-Power set up will not be that hard on any motor as a single four can out flow it, and you run off the central 2 barrel most of the time anyway.

I'll probably bug the hell out of you guys if you answer my questions. This is just a warning. I want to get this engine right.

No problem that isd why we are all here; to help each other.




Big Dave
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Chevy Power
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks dave.

Is there a way that i can test my Main Caps? It seems wasteful to have a block line bored that doesn't need it. Would Measurements tell me anything about the true orientation of my Main Caps?

So, do you suggest that i run a GOOD single 4BBL Carb instead? I have an Edelbrock Victor Jr Intake that will fit, but it's a Single Plane and therefore isn't as good for Low-End Torque, Right? In addition, i would probably have to use a 2500 Stall Torque Converter in that Application. Again, i haven't really made that decision yet. The Torque Converter isn't a major issue though. they aren't that expensive or hard to install.
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MufflerBearings69
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd personally avoid the thought pattern of worrying that a single plane will kill low end torque... I used to read a TON of that, and now the more I do with engines, the less I believe a bit of it.

Build it to run, stall it accordingly, use more throttle angle as necessary. lol

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clay
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Dave covered about everything, but IF you want to run a flat tappet, you can put a moly based lube on it like ARP moly lube. It is marketed for fasteners but it will stay on the cam and lifter area basically forever unlike some of the more oil like consistency that some cam manufacturers send for lube (although if at all possible I to recommend a hydraulic roller). Victor Jr. is a good street intake, if you have it, by all means run it. It really depends on what horsepower level you are looking at if something like a RPM Air Gap will outperform it (but only up to about 4500 rpm, then they are basically equal to the Victor Jr. pulling ahead slightly from about every test I have seen). As far as the main caps, I would look at the parting lines to see how they fit. Look VERY carefully and see if there is an edge that you can snag a fingernail on which would indicate that the bores aren't aligned side to side. Also look at the honing marks to see if you can get the scratches to line up which if you can would verify that cap is in the correct location. You also need to measure the bore diameter in the vertical orientation to check actual size but this has to go with the caps being aligned side to side. If you have to get it corrected, a quick line hone should do it - I wouldn't think you would have to get it bored unless you can see something grossly wrong. It will move the crank and cam closer together by a few thousanths which isn't a big deal - cam chain might be slightly looser, but if you want to fix that, cam chain sets are offered with a 0.005" and 0.010" closer distance I believe. Absolutely don't worry about asking questions, happy to help. Welcome to Smokemup. Clay
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A single four is a lot easier to tune than three two's. The linkage alone is a big headache, and you have fuel distribution problems as the engine transitions onto all three carburetors at wide open throttle.

As to the single plane manifold, you will be down a little on torque in the lower RPM range (as expected as you have all eight cylinders drawing from the sigle plenum instead of two banks of four cylinders drawing from two smaller plenums; so your air velocity will be down compared to the air velocity in a dual plane manifold). Combine that with the short runners found on a single plane (longer runners build torque lower in the RPM ban than short runners do which favor higher the RPMs), and it is easy to see why a single plane realy does offer less torque in the lower RPMs where normal driving occurs.

But if you spend all of your life above 4500 RPM and never idle I can see where there wouldn't be any loss of torque the way MufflerBearings69 describes it. I imagine it is just a difference in driving style as to what you feel in the seat of your pants; as every dyno test ever run confirms the engineering theory about velocity and volume-pressure relationships from fluid mechanics and from wave mechanics theory as to what is going on inside the manifold.

Big Dave
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jeep_406
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless I missed it I didn't read what the engine is going into. What the application is would determine what parts you want to use. I'd go with a retrofit Roller cam setup.
You could mock up the block using the mains and crank to check clearances but if you have any doubts what-so-ever get the block machined.
I usually wait until I'm going to use an engine before assembling it.

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af2
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1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread reminds me of my oldest son at college when he invited us for dinner. (80 miles away)

There were Blazer parts and motorcycle parts all over his kitchen!!!!!!!!!!

The wife(mom) and I cleaned dishes so we could cook and eat! Laughing Laughing Then ate outside.

Got to love em!!! Cool
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MufflerBearings69
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some days I think someone just enjoys crapping on my every post.

I guess the idea there could be a forum with knowledge and without arrogance is a dream...

Regardless, not all single plane manifolds are created equal- for someone on a budget a modest single plane can work out just fine... throwing something like a Victor on a daily driver engine without stall is another story...

Go ahead and crap on this post too... I know, I am just one of those stupid people who works with what they can afford...

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Chevy Power
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, as i understand it, the outer carbs don't have power valves or anything. they're just open tubes. all of the tuning is done on the center carb. They make a kit to turn normal Rochesters into outer carbs. they don't even have mixture Screws.

The Difference in me and a college kid is that you wouldn't have to do dishes at my house. My Block is Clean as is my house. there are no Greasy, Grimy parts in the house. Most of this engine will be made with NEW or VERY CLEAN parts. I'm gonna build it the way one would build a Plastic Model. The exception would be that it's gonna be Steel and weigh 800 LBS. Another Difference in me and a College kid is that i'm 40 Years old. That was a funny story though. I can picture it. That's the way i was when i was 20 years younger.

Based on what i've been told by you guys, i think i WILL take this to the Machine Shop AGAIN and have the Mains checked. I don't want to have to do a rebuild.

Today i go look at a Potential Recipient car. It's a 1982 Camaro. It's 100 Miles away, but the guy only wants $1000 for what he says is a Good Straight Body with a Good running 305 in it. The picture looks like it backs this up. I hope i don't rent the Carrier and travel 100 Miles for nothing. I haven't figured out what i'll do with the 305 when i remove it though. The Good News is that everything should bolt right to the 350 Block since they're practically the same on the outside.
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

305 and the 350 are the same on the outside.

Rather than driving with a car hauler you may not need (I am assuming since you are renting an apartment that bans working on cars they probably frown on you parking a trailer out front as well so I figure you are renting one) why not drive to look first and if you like it rent a car haul trailer wherever the car is. Most moving outfits as well as U- haul rent them.

MufflerBearings69 no offense intended: and I agree with you to work with what you have when on a limited budget. I was arguing the point of a single plane being no different than a dual plane in terms of torque development. I am sorry if I insulted you in any way.


Big Dave
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Chevy Power
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, i got the Recipient Car. It's a 1982 Camaro RS. The Body is straight and virtually rust free. The interior needs some TLC though. The Engine is a VERY VERY tired 305 and the Tranny is a 350. The First order of business is to replace the Steering Column. There's ALOT of Slack in the wheel. Hopefully it's just the Column, but i'm going to start with that anyhow since it's pretty beaten up. The Lock Cylinder is missing the paddles on either side of the key hole that assists you in cranking it. It was Really Scarry driving it home 100 Miles, but that's a testament to the condition of the drivetrain. All told i paid $900 for the Car. Transportation cost $100 to $150. I drove down there in a Rental and dropped it there. after i drove the car home, i had to get a taxi to bring me back to where my main car was parked.
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jeep_406
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You were planning on changing the powerplant anyway. The fact that it is rust free will pay big dividends. It gives you a great starting point.
How are you planning on using the vehicle? If you're going to do much highway driving I can't suggest highly enough that you put an overdrive transmission in it.
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Chevy Power
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not planning on a whole lot of highway miles. This thing is gonna be more of a Toy than anything else.
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MufflerBearings69
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rust free and the electrical all works? Sold.

That ignition lock is a 30 dollar afternoon to fix but I would wait til the column is deemed a "keeper" before I did it. If ya need another column and can pull one with a good cyl with its key even better.

Sounds like a sweet starting point.

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