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Seating rings ???
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eldabo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Seating rings ??? Reply with quote

I had a small block built a year ago twice. first time it smoked not bad but at idle it would with just a light haze . Some times at start up it would shoot out a cloud of blue. I pulled the motor took it back to the builder for a re-ring . Now it does the same thing. The motor is all new but not the heads .It was started up and ran on e85 and ran super cool like less than 150 it was hard to get it to 180 degrees. It was ran like this for a short time before the e85 was no longer avalable. Now its ran on 110 mix with super unleaded. The motor has about 50 mile on it totle .Would it be better to pull it again and rering it or just drive it and put a bunch of miles on it. It a street stip car with 5.29 gears so no long trips in the forseeable future.

Thanks
David
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure it is the rings. What is the compression? Have you performed a leak down test? I suspect both will result in standard readings as I suspect you have oil sealing issueswith your valves not the rings. (The use of block plates and micro finish stone hones with automated honing machines have reduced breakin to minutes not miles.)

Big Dave
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clay
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Dave - I would be looking at the heads too. One thing you can check is to pull the headers and look at the valves in the ports after it has been sitting for a day or so. You might see the back of the valves being very wet. You can pull the intake and look at the intake valves for the same thing although it is harder to see on the backs of the intakes as they are usually pretty clean. You are pretty much describing the classic valve seal / guide issue. Over night oil leaks past the seals and sits on the valves. That's where the big puff of smoke at startup comes from. At idle, you have a high vacuum situation trying to suck oil past the intake guide. A light haze at idle could be rings, but the big puff at startup puts my money on the heads. Clay
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af2
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, what they said.
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eldabo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That has ran across my mind . The heads are afr 210s older ones 2005 model. They were supposed have been reworked when the motor was built ,at least I payed for them to be.One guy said that the e85 may have made the cylinder walls glaze or because of not getting any more heat than it was running.Or washed the wall down because of the volume of fuel you use with e85. I will say that it does not burn oil enough to have to add oil all the time . I check it every time before I drive it and it seems to stay the same . Any thoughts on this ?


Thanks in advance

David
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10sec.et
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

before i lead you in the wrong direction, i will say that i agree with everyone else, check the heads. that being said, how was the finish on the cylinders done ? first time i had an engine done by my current machinist (15 years ago) he said "DONT put Castrol in this engine before break-in, it WILL smoke". that sounded like the silliest thing i ever heard and besides, my shop had Castrol by the 500 gallon tank. sure enough, it smoked like a freight train during and after the cam break-in. so, after having my ass chewed for not following directions, i put in 5 quarts of Penzoil and covered the radiator to build heat. in about 10 minutes at 225 degrees it quit smoking and never burned a drop of oil afterwards. moral of the story............ listen to your machinist Wink .
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af2 wrote:
It seems we can look at our magical Balls and come up with a fix?

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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldabo wrote:
That has ran across my mind . The heads are afr 210s older ones 2005 model. They were supposed have been reworked when the motor was built ,at least I payed for them to be.One guy said that the e85 may have made the cylinder walls glaze or because of not getting any more heat than it was running.Or washed the wall down because of the volume of fuel you use with e85. I will say that it does not burn oil enough to have to add oil all the time . I check it every time before I drive it and it seems to stay the same . Any thoughts on this ?

Thanks in advance

David


e-85 is essentially running alcohol and requires that you use all of the parts and procedures required to build an alcohol based engine. This includes ring gaps which should be tighter than for gasoline. Yes alcohol is harder on oil than gasoline, and will wash the oil from the cylinder walls more easily which likes a looser ring tension which could yield oil in the chamber, but I doubt it.

You actually run a looser valve stem to valve guide clearance with power adders as you are building heat. Alcohol burns with less heat so the valve guide clearances have to be tighter. Valve guide wear and the valve stem oil seals I think is your problem.

Big Dave
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clay
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think that even if you ran a little rich mixture, in the short term it would actually help rings to seat. Long term, it would wear bores out, but short term it might not be a bad thing. Never heard the Castrol thing - weird. I wonder what actually happens when that occurs. Clay
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10sec.et
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clay wrote:
Never heard the Castrol thing - weird. I wonder what actually happens when that occurs. Clay


its how he does the finish on the cylinder walls. i dont know exactly how he does it but the only stipulation is not to use Castrol in the first 500 miles or so. after that, no problem. hes the only engine builder i ever heard that from. although i will say that out of all the engines hes done for me, ive NEVER had a ring sealing issue......... except when i didnt follow instructions Embarassed .

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af2
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10sec.et wrote:
clay wrote:
Never heard the Castrol thing - weird. I wonder what actually happens when that occurs. Clay


its how he does the finish on the cylinder walls. i dont know exactly how he does it but the only stipulation is not to use Castrol in the first 500 miles or so. after that, no problem. hes the only engine builder i ever heard that from. although i will say that out of all the engines hes done for me, ive NEVER had a ring sealing issue......... except when i didnt follow instructions Embarassed .


This is not the first time I have heard of this. There are other oils that I have heard will do the same.

I am still a N/D(non detergent) break in type of person. It has never let me down. And you should dump the shyt anyways after a few miles.
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eldabo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only common denominator with the two motors is the heads and the four hole wilson spacer.What are the chances that the four hole spacer is giving to strong of a signal to the carburetor and making it pull to much fuel???
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osmiumfoot
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFR heads? Viton guide seals
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eldabo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think so but not sure . Im going to check the seals when I can get my hands on a spring tool. Would it still burn oil if the guids were loose but had new seals?
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10sec.et
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldabo wrote:
Would it still burn oil if the guids were loose but had new seals?


yes.

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clay
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What are the chances that the four hole spacer is giving to strong of a signal to the carburetor and making it pull to much fuel???

Zero. Have you seen the link on here about the older AFR heads and oil drainback? Just another possibility. I have seen worn guides and new seals not stop oil consumption too. Let us know what you find. Clay

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