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another cam bites the dust......472 BBF jetboat
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disturbthepeace1
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Joined: 14 Jun 2003
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Location: Stanton, CA
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1965 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:40 pm    Post subject: another cam bites the dust......472 BBF jetboat Reply with quote

chalk another flat tappet on the board under the colum "didn't have a chance"

My guess to why she went flat is based on the fact that the owner could not get the wiring right on the ignition and had no spark, wiping all the break in lube due to excessive cranking....

The motor is down to a bare block now and has some scratches on just about every cylinder but all scratches are about half way down the bore... the mains need to be cut, and new bearings all the way around


This is what I have questions about:

We are going to have to use the same pistons and block meaning I have to make good of a shitty situation..

would it be wise to do a home hone job on the cylinders because I think i can ge most of the scuffs out... if so what is the best way to do so?

I had exactly .085 clearance between the intake valve and the piston including head gasket. Two pistons had marks were the they kissed.. Now, IMO they would half to float to touch but if the cam was going flat could this be a possibility?? or should I figure out a way to clearance the piston a little more?

I have been doing some research and found a shop that has a machine called "Camking 2000" . This is a process that breaks in the cam before you put it in the motor.. has anyone herd of this.. I think I might try it unless I find some negative experiences...

http://www.camresearchcorp.com/CamKing/camking.htm

Im really bummed about this one, It was my first ford build and I spent allot of time on it...

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af2
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.085 is plenty on the intake and is what most people run on the exhaust!
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disturbthepeace1
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1965 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

then I have to find why it hit... one theory is that since the lifter mushroomed a little and there was a lot of play in the valvetrain. It might have shot it up into the bore, jamming the lifter in the bore keeping the valve open longer then it was sopposed to... I had to take all but 3 lifters out from the cam side... they were too mushroomed out to pull through the intake side of the block.... But I have not found any scores in the lifter bores but i need to take a second look.



I hate Fords.......

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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the "Camking 2000" seems to be a good idea but i have never heard anything about it. i know i could change out the lightweight springs long before i could ship the cam/lifters and get them back. im WAY too paranoid to trust someone else with my cam and lifters but thats just me. what brand cam/lifters ? what springs were you breaking the cam in with ? what assy lube and oil ? i guess ive been lucky because ive never had a cam go flat on breakin. i have even had a couple that had to be shut off and restarted.
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af2 wrote:
It seems we can look at our magical Balls and come up with a fix?

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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just reread your post. did YOU break in the cam or is this the aftermath of someone else ?
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af2 wrote:
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disturbthepeace1
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1965 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aftermath of some one else...

VR-1 20w-50, comp cam and lifters with the suggested sprinds..


I used there breakin lube and addittive But did not remove the inner springs.. This is the first motor that has gone flat on breakin...

Since this motor is in a boat he does not have a a compressor a the river house so changing springs out after break in is difficult but not impossible(loading and taking my dinosor compressor is the hardest part)...

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squeeezer
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1991 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disturbthepeace1 wrote:
aftermath of some one else...

VR-1 20w-50, comp cam and lifters with the suggested sprinds..


I used there breakin lube and addittive But did not remove the inner springs.. This is the first motor that has gone flat on breakin...

Since this motor is in a boat he does not have a a compressor a the river house so changing springs out after break in is difficult but not impossible(loading and taking my dinosor compressor is the hardest part)...





not an excuse always always always remove inner springs in any engine where it applies

otherwise use a single spring(beehive)

i have a buddy who wipped out a big block within 2 city blocks because he was in too much of a hurry to take out inner springs


1 hydraulic or solid flat tappet?
2 do you soak your lifters before installing?
3 any bent valves, pushrods etc?

ive used a bottle hone to re-hone a re-ring job(little to no wear at cylinders) i just try to match the pattern to what the ring manufacturer recomends ie:30 degree crosshatch or 45 degree angles
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disturbthepeace1
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1965 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
not an excuse always always always remove inner springs in any engine where it applies



never have and this is the first one to go flat.. So always is really a precaution...... and its not a excuse...


Solid flat...


going to talk to comp and see iff they can make a set of BBF lifters with a oil hole on the lifter face...

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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spring pressure will definitely kill a cam on breakin. my machinist (a hardcore Ford guy) will assemble the motor, valve covers and all, and give you the inner springs in a box. i also prefer to use a breakin lube with LOTS of Moly. still not a reason for the pistons to kiss the valves. im thinking it was over-reved and the valves floated.

instead of dragging around a big heavy air compressor, why not rent a little "pancake" compressor from Home Depot ? you dont need a lot of air volume, mainly pressure to hold the valves closed.

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disturbthepeace1
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1965 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize the importance of removing the springs.. That is the first thing that crossed my mind when I herd the news.the point is that I have gotin away with out removing them in many different motors (most with close to or over 270psi over the nose)and I finnaly got stung....

honestly I rather send it out to get broken in then remove valve springs in 118 degree heat.. plus it would save about 50 bucks in oil...


It might of had a better chance if it had not been cranked dry for a hour while the ignition bugs were worked out... I see that as a more of a issue then the springs....

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William Jones
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sorry to here about the cam. I think you are on the right track with the lifters hanging in the bore and causing the valve to kiss the piston. I have seen that happen on a Cleveland when we wiped a solid lifter cam from him using the wrong springs (they had to much spring pressure) and oil. The cam wiped out after we put the inner springs back in after our break in time.

I have used Cam research and sister company MPG heads and have always been pleased with anything that I have received from them. They stay pretty busy so turn around will depend on how busy they are. It took about 2-3 weeks to get the cam. Since you have to buy another cam you could have them custom grind you a cam for your app and it will be about the same price and might save you some time. There cams are pretty reasonable and they have years of experience with Ford combinations. Just my 2 cents I hope you get it back together with no problems.

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clay
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think BBF's, Boss 302's with which I have had personal experience on wiping out a cam, and probably Clevelands have another cam break in disadvantage - the high rocker arm ratio - 1.73 I believe which would put even more load on the lifter given the same spring pressure on a SBC for instance. Of course once broken in, then it becomes and advantage Very Happy . Clay
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Knarley Darley
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As fast as the cam went away, I wonder if they were Chinese lifters. This Country is loosing its integrity to the point you almost cant get a decent quality lifter, and who the heck knows where it was made! I would use a ball hone so you dont change the shape of the cylinders and ask the cam manufacturer why the cam went flat that fast. Torco assembly lube is the slipperiest stuff on the planet, and I would dump a whole bottle into the oil as well before start up. You probably already did this, but spin the pump drive with a drill so it has oil right when it starts. Keep us posted, and sorry for your misfortune.
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disturbthepeace1
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1965 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

any tips on using a ball hone or witch one i should use??


thanks for the support and the the lifters were COMPS, im going to contact them next week and see what they'll do for me.

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squeeezer
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1991 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clay wrote:
I think BBF's, Boss 302's with which I have had personal experience on wiping out a cam, and probably Clevelands have another cam break in disadvantage - the high rocker arm ratio - 1.73 I believe which would put even more load on the lifter given the same spring pressure on a SBC for instance. Of course once broken in, then it becomes and advantage Very Happy . Clay





i would think lift is lift
the spring doent know what kind of rocker is on it
it only knows how far it compresses
and how fast compared to spring rate

in that case if i were a valve spring id want to be in a small block chevy with their limited lifter diameter =they can only ramp up so fast compared to any ford or mopar
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