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Building a 350 for a friend and had cam questions.
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JAKEJR
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 17
Location: MERRILLVILLE, INDIANA
1003.14 points



PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if it's credentials you're looking for, here goes.

I'm 62 years old and have been building Chevy engines since I was in my 20s.

I use to build low 8 second, 1/4 mile, single carbed, BB Chevy engines for several teams in the Chicago area and these were all normally aspirated. I REFUSE to build a nitrous engine. This was when the Pro Stock guys were still in the 7s.

They were extremely competitive and ran consistently without a serious amount of breakage. The biggest CID engine was less that 500 CID, they were 468, 477 and 482 CIDs.

One of the guys I built engines for, Skip, returned from a meet in Michigan with the Tell-Tale pegged at 9200. This was a 2 bolt block and I warned him that it was only a matter of time.

The 477 CID Roadster I use to drive ran in the low eights at over 170 MPH. If you've never driven a low 8 second, 170+ MPH roadster (with the engine directly in front of you where you really couldn't see the track in front of you) you haven't lived.

Let's take a poll, all of you who have run over 170 MPH in a quarter mile, raise your hand.

What I post is industry standard information, not something I came up with in a dream.

The information I pass on comes, in part, from the industry leaders. The industry leaders list reads like a "Who's Who" in performance parts for engines. CompCams, Edelbrock, Air Flow Research, Crane, TPIS, on and on.

I've heard this "Old School" argument many times before. It didn't hold water then and doesn't now.

I've also heard, so many times I've lost count, things like "So and So did this" and "So and So did that". It's usually guys who haven't walked the road I have who come up with statements like that.

Bottom line, Do what you want, it's your engine and you're money.

Best I can do is give the best advice based on personal experience with so many engines in my past I can't recall them all, with my experience with the Mini-Rammed 415 CID in my 86 Vette and with the experiences I have with the LT1 in my 96 Vette.

As I said, do what you want, I can only give you the best advice I can: Take it or Leave it. But to imply I don't know what I'm talking about is offensive.

Jake
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af2
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5557
Location: grassvalley, ca
71191.50 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAKEJR wrote:
Well, if it's credentials you're looking for, here goes.

I'm 62 years old and have been building Chevy engines since I was in my 20s.

I use to build low 8 second, 1/4 mile, single carbed, BB Chevy engines for several teams in the Chicago area and these were all normally aspirated. I REFUSE to build a nitrous engine. This was when the Pro Stock guys were still in the 7s.

They were extremely competitive and ran consistently without a serious amount of breakage. The biggest CID engine was less that 500 CID, they were 468, 477 and 482 CIDs.

One of the guys I built engines for, Skip, returned from a meet in Michigan with the Tell-Tale pegged at 9200. This was a 2 bolt block and I warned him that it was only a matter of time.

The 477 CID Roadster I use to drive ran in the low eights at over 170 MPH. If you've never driven a low 8 second, 170+ MPH roadster (with the engine directly in front of you where you really couldn't see the track in front of you) you haven't lived.

Let's take a poll, all of you who have run over 170 MPH in a quarter mile, raise your hand.

What I post is industry standard information, not something I came up with in a dream.

The information I pass on comes, in part, from the industry leaders. The industry leaders list reads like a "Who's Who" in performance parts for engines. CompCams, Edelbrock, Air Flow Research, Crane, TPIS, on and on.

I've heard this "Old School" argument many times before. It didn't hold water then and doesn't now.

I've also heard, so many times I've lost count, things like "So and So did this" and "So and So did that". It's usually guys who haven't walked the road I have who come up with statements like that.

Bottom line, Do what you want, it's your engine and you're money.

Best I can do is give the best advice based on personal experience with so many engines in my past I can't recall them all, with my experience with the Mini-Rammed 415 CID in my 86 Vette and with the experiences I have with the LT1 in my 96 Vette.

As I said, do what you want, I can only give you the best advice I can: Take it or Leave it. But to imply I don't know what I'm talking about is offensive.

Jake


I guess the kid part is not part of the deal! Embarassed
Glad to have the expierance on board!

Glad you are here!
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SMOKEmUP
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Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 3169

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1979 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would pick a cam in the mid 220's @ 0.05 on the intake which sets the DCR around 8.5:1. Depending on the head flow go a bit more duration on the exhaust. For street engine I like to keep the lift at 0.550" or less for durability. For LSA I say 112 to 114, you can go tighter but it gets harder to tune.
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JAKEJR
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 17
Location: MERRILLVILLE, INDIANA
1003.14 points



PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

af2 wrote:
JAKEJR wrote:
Well, if it's credentials you're looking for, here goes.

I'm 62 years old and have been building Chevy engines since I was in my 20s.

I use to build low 8 second, 1/4 mile, single carbed, BB Chevy engines for several teams in the Chicago area and these were all normally aspirated. I REFUSE to build a nitrous engine. This was when the Pro Stock guys were still in the 7s.

They were extremely competitive and ran consistently without a serious amount of breakage. The biggest CID engine was less that 500 CID, they were 468, 477 and 482 CIDs.

One of the guys I built engines for, Skip, returned from a meet in Michigan with the Tell-Tale pegged at 9200. This was a 2 bolt block and I warned him that it was only a matter of time.

The 477 CID Roadster I use to drive ran in the low eights at over 170 MPH. If you've never driven a low 8 second, 170+ MPH roadster (with the engine directly in front of you where you really couldn't see the track in front of you) you haven't lived.

Let's take a poll, all of you who have run over 170 MPH in a quarter mile, raise your hand.

What I post is industry standard information, not something I came up with in a dream.

The information I pass on comes, in part, from the industry leaders. The industry leaders list reads like a "Who's Who" in performance parts for engines. CompCams, Edelbrock, Air Flow Research, Crane, TPIS, on and on.

I've heard this "Old School" argument many times before. It didn't hold water then and doesn't now.

I've also heard, so many times I've lost count, things like "So and So did this" and "So and So did that". It's usually guys who haven't walked the road I have who come up with statements like that.

Bottom line, Do what you want, it's your engine and you're money.

Best I can do is give the best advice based on personal experience with so many engines in my past I can't recall them all, with my experience with the Mini-Rammed 415 CID in my 86 Vette and with the experiences I have with the LT1 in my 96 Vette.

As I said, do what you want, I can only give you the best advice I can: Take it or Leave it. But to imply I don't know what I'm talking about is offensive.

Jake


I guess the kid part is not part of the deal! Embarassed
Glad to have the expierance on board!

Glad you are here!


Thanks.

I guess I should have mentioned that my daughter, Lindsey, graduated from HARVARD with a degree in Electrical Engineering in 2005 and my son, Ryan, is a first year Cadet at West Point.

Think that would have made a difference? Well, at least I might not be considered to be an idiot. LOL

Jake
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JAKEJR
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 17
Location: MERRILLVILLE, INDIANA
1003.14 points



PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smokemup wrote:
I would pick a cam in the mid 220's @ 0.05 on the intake which sets the DCR around 8.5:1. Depending on the head flow go a bit more duration on the exhaust. For street engine I like to keep the lift at 0.550" or less for durability. For LSA I say 112 to 114, you can go tighter but it gets harder to tune.


Yep, that's what I'd do.

TPIS came up with that with their ZZ9; extend the exhaust duration beyond the standard of 6 degrees which was normally seen. Seems to work best in all the mag articles of their dyno tests.

Keep the LSA at 112 or above and extend the exhaust duration. More exhaust duration can minimize the effects of a "not so spec'd out exhaust", like when running stock exhaust.

A longer exhaust duration on the cam can considerably over-come
an exhaust system that flows LESS than you'd like. If you open the exhaust valve sooner and keep it open longer you'll get more exhaust flow out of the engine. Of course there are limits on how earlier/longer the exhaust valve can be open; it's like a balancing act.

That seems to be the key. But let's not forget valve lift.

JAKE
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10sec.et
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 3472
Location: Houston,Texas
346624.78 points


1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

96capriceMGR wrote:
Like I said above I know someone is specing at least as low as 107 in LT1s these days, mine is not that tight but is tighter than 112 and it seems to work just fine all with the stock computer.

You need to read fewer magazines and find out more about cars that actually perform. What people say you need and what actually work are often two entirely different things.

I know you are well intentioned but almost your whole post is outdated theory that is just plain WRONG. The guys who make the 114LSA mistake are wondering why their strokers are slower than my stock shortblock Rolling Eyes .

You want to pretend to know anything please post YOUR RESULTS.
I get REALLY tired of kids who read a magazine once handing out info especially when it contradicts the info given by someone with PROOF.


JAKEJR wrote:
I guess I should have mentioned that my daughter, Lindsey, graduated from HARVARD with a degree in Electrical Engineering in 2005 and my son, Ryan, is a first year Cadet at West Point.

Think that would have made a difference? Well, at least I might not be considered to be an idiot. LOL


not to worry JAKEJR. 96capriceMGR really knows his stuff about the LT1, he just gets a bit overzealous sometimes Wink . welcome aboard.

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af2 wrote:
It seems we can look at our magical Balls and come up with a fix?

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JAKEJR
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Location: MERRILLVILLE, INDIANA
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10sec.et wrote:
96capriceMGR wrote:
Like I said above I know someone is specing at least as low as 107 in LT1s these days, mine is not that tight but is tighter than 112 and it seems to work just fine all with the stock computer.

You need to read fewer magazines and find out more about cars that actually perform. What people say you need and what actually work are often two entirely different things.

I know you are well intentioned but almost your whole post is outdated theory that is just plain WRONG. The guys who make the 114LSA mistake are wondering why their strokers are slower than my stock shortblock Rolling Eyes .

You want to pretend to know anything please post YOUR RESULTS.
I get REALLY tired of kids who read a magazine once handing out info especially when it contradicts the info given by someone with PROOF.


JAKEJR wrote:
I guess I should have mentioned that my daughter, Lindsey, graduated from HARVARD with a degree in Electrical Engineering in 2005 and my son, Ryan, is a first year Cadet at West Point.

Think that would have made a difference? Well, at least I might not be considered to be an idiot. LOL


not to worry JAKEJR. 96capriceMGR really knows his stuff about the LT1, he just gets a bit overzealous sometimes Wink . welcome aboard.


Yep, there is at LEAST one on the Corvette Forum too, who's the same way. He's started some of the most unpleasant exchanges I've ever read. If you want his screen name, PM me and I'll be glad to provide it.

Maybe every Forum has one. LOL

Jake
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af2
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5557
Location: grassvalley, ca
71191.50 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake, the real idiots never return and that is fine by me! Laughing
The ones that know their stuff always are here. That is why I enjoy this website!
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nwcc
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Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 453
Location: Pacific Northwest
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

af2 wrote:
Jake, the real idiots never return and that is fine by me! Laughing
The ones that know their stuff always are here. That is why I enjoy this website!


I'm the only idiot that keeps returning Very Happy
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af2
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5557
Location: grassvalley, ca
71191.50 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nwcc wrote:
af2 wrote:
Jake, the real idiots never return and that is fine by me! Laughing
The ones that know their stuff always are here. That is why I enjoy this website!


I'm the only idiot that keeps returning Very Happy


What!???
Me too!
96Caprice is a good one to look at with his posts!
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96capriceMGR
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Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 814
Location: New London Wisconsin
20327.88 points


1996 Chevrolet Caprice

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A race engine aint a street engine and old school carbed guys usually have more missconceptions about injection than good info.

The info you posted is "industry standard" that does not make it right Rolling Eyes .
Edelbrock's LT1 heads are a joke they struggle to keep pace with the OEM advances. Comp is way too willing to sell everyone the too big a cam they want and spread the LSA to tame it, the customers never know they are missing BIG power. AFR is all marketing, the all out race stuff works in applications that need nothing but a big hole but they lack the finesse necessary for NA power with normal cubes. TPIS is in the buissiness of taking customer's money, a good friend believes in them and his stroked f-body on slicks has run a best of .1 worse than I have on street tires with the slicks and tools in the trunk Embarassed . He would be the same guy who first told me there was daylight under the front tire on launch Shocked and rode with the day I drove 150miles each way to run 11s with this whale.

I don't have much of a budget so I rely on my research abilities which are above average. I sort out the internet noise and marketing BS from reality and apply it to my car as best I can afford. Struggled for a few years before I began to learn and now have quite a street monster on my hands.

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb90252.htm Great cam article by David Vizard the guy who did cam R&D for many cam companies and tells the REAL story rather than the company line. The LCA(interchangable with LSA) section in particular should be mandatory reading for anyone cam shopping.

I will not claim to have speced my cam, I let the heads guy spec it because my research said he knew his stuff. It is mid 220s intake, fairly typical amount more exhaust duration, sub-112 LSA and sub .570 lift with 1.6s. Yes the heads work well at higher lift but being a true street car and him being conservative with what he demands of a spring we did not push the lift limits and abuse the springs.

I may be less than half your age but I could still teach you a lot about the LT1 if you listened. This is the first car I ever really modified so it is the only application I have had to master and did not come into it with any antiquated ideas or preconceptions based on a DIFFERENT APPLICATION.
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JAKEJR
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 17
Location: MERRILLVILLE, INDIANA
1003.14 points



PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

af2 wrote:
nwcc wrote:
af2 wrote:
Jake, the real idiots never return and that is fine by me! Laughing
The ones that know their stuff always are here. That is why I enjoy this website!


I'm the only idiot that keeps returning Very Happy


What!???
Me too!
96Caprice is a good one to look at with his posts!


I'm a strong believer that reasonable people can disagree and debate most anything, but the few of his posts that I've read -

Well let's just say he's now on my Ignore List.

Jake
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af2
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5557
Location: grassvalley, ca
71191.50 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAKEJR wrote:
af2 wrote:
nwcc wrote:
af2 wrote:
Jake, the real idiots never return and that is fine by me! Laughing
The ones that know their stuff always are here. That is why I enjoy this website!


I'm the only idiot that keeps returning Very Happy


What!???
Me too!
96Caprice is a good one to look at with his posts!


I'm a strong believer that reasonable people can disagree and debate most anything, but the few of his posts that I've read -

Well let's just say he's now on my Ignore List.

Jake


I am out of this one because of lack of knowledge! I wish the best to anyone that learns from the posts!
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10sec.et
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Location: Houston,Texas
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

from what i gather, 96capriceMGR is frustrated by all of the hype from so many aftermarket companies that make big claims but deliver very little. someone once told me..."the auto manufacturers spend millions on research & development, the aftermarket spends millions on PROMOTION. being in the auto repair business i know this to be very true. im not saying that the aftermarket stuff is all junk but i cant tell you how many kids ive seen come into the shop with their K&N "cold air intake" systems that do nothing but pull the HOT air from the engine compartment retard . im not trying to defend anyone here just trying to find the facts like everyone else.
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af2 wrote:
It seems we can look at our magical Balls and come up with a fix?

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SMOKEmUP
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Joined: 30 May 2002
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1979 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to respect what 96capriceMGR has done with his car. 4150 lbs, stock displacement, stock bottom end, relatively mild cam that runs 11s normally aspirated.
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I challenge you to push yourself.
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