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Nitrous must have brung out the weak spots w/pics
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William Jones
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Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 820
Location: Lake city, FL
28456.50 points


1971 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey bo see if you can get the carbon off one of the pistons so I can really see it. But I can tell you that they don't look like any factory cleveland pistons I have seen. In your earlier post you said something about it saying 40 on the piston that usally means .040 over. I can tell you they aren't wiseco, TRW, or stock. Maybe Keith Black the big arrow is a strange feature. Looking at the pic it looks like they might be forged because of the shiny color of the one spot that is clean but can't really tell.
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Bocephus027
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Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 126

4536.20 points


1972 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So assuming this is a oil problem, I need be build up my motor to accept the new grade of oil that doesn't have enough/any ZDDP in it for flat tappet lifters. Reguardless of what type of cam I have, can I get the Anti pump up Hydraulic Lifters? New set of rods, I looked at scorpion pedestal roller rockers, I would like to stay with the pedestal opposed to conversion kit.


I also what spring strength would you recommend, seeing that mine may be around 160, they are listed in summit for the strengths of 200 lbs and over?


My valves seem to be good, but I wont tell until this winter storm lets up so i can go buy a valve spring compressor.


As for the pistons I think they are Hypereutectic Keith Black's The top of the piston looks like a shiny aluminum with a series of spirals as pictured in summit.



You guys are helping me out a ton!!! It's another learning experience, nobody I know, knows anything about engine work, so the internet is my best friend in situations like this! Thanks for all the help so far I'm moving along slowly, but I'm moving!

Ill be posting back in a day or so with questions considering installation most likely Laughing
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af2
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5557
Location: grassvalley, ca
71191.50 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bocephus027 wrote:
So assuming this is a oil problem, I need be build up my motor to accept the new grade of oil that doesn't have enough/any ZDDP in it for flat tappet lifters. Reguardless of what type of cam I have, can I get the Anti pump up Hydraulic Lifters? New set of rods, I looked at scorpion pedestal roller rockers, I would like to stay with the pedestal opposed to conversion kit.


I also what spring strength would you recommend, seeing that mine may be around 160, they are listed in summit for the strengths of 200 lbs and over?


My valves seem to be good, but I wont tell until this winter storm lets up so i can go buy a valve spring compressor.


As for the pistons I think they are Hypereutectic Keith Black's The top of the piston looks like a shiny aluminum with a series of spirals as pictured in summit.



You guys are helping me out a ton!!! It's another learning experience, nobody I know, knows anything about engine work, so the internet is my best friend in situations like this! Thanks for all the help so far I'm moving along slowly, but I'm moving!

Ill be posting back in a day or so with questions considering installation most likely Laughing


I have to leave this one alone! Rolling Eyes
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Bocephus027
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Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 126

4536.20 points


1972 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

af2 wrote:
Bocephus027 wrote:
So assuming this is a oil problem, I need be build up my motor to accept the new grade of oil that doesn't have enough/any ZDDP in it for flat tappet lifters. Reguardless of what type of cam I have, can I get the Anti pump up Hydraulic Lifters? New set of rods, I looked at scorpion pedestal roller rockers, I would like to stay with the pedestal opposed to conversion kit.


I also what spring strength would you recommend, seeing that mine may be around 160, they are listed in summit for the strengths of 200 lbs and over?


My valves seem to be good, but I wont tell until this winter storm lets up so i can go buy a valve spring compressor.


As for the pistons I think they are Hypereutectic Keith Black's The top of the piston looks like a shiny aluminum with a series of spirals as pictured in summit.



You guys are helping me out a ton!!! It's another learning experience, nobody I know, knows anything about engine work, so the internet is my best friend in situations like this! Thanks for all the help so far I'm moving along slowly, but I'm moving!

Ill be posting back in a day or so with questions considering installation most likely Laughing


I have to leave this one alone! Rolling Eyes


uh oh, I must not be getting something.
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Big Dave
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Location: Tampa Florida
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't!

You can not change lifters in mid stream anymore than you can change horses. Once a set of flat tappets have been worn in then they must stay on the cam just were they came from. Assuming your old tappet isn't damaged on the bottom of the lifter (in which case you will have to replace both cam and lifters) you can rebuild it.

Buy One Single hydraulic lifter of the same make as you have now (if it is stock Ford part get a Ford, if it is a Crane cam lifter buy one on line (they sell individual parts just for this reason) from them, same if it is CompCam, etc. Once you have the new lifter take it apart and put the guts out of the new lifter, back in the old lifer body, and put on the clip that came off to cause this problem in the first place. Make sure every thing is in it's right place and holding together (if the grove that holds the clip is rounded or damaged all bets are off, but I'm betting it's OK). Soak the rebuilt lifter in a cup of motor oil at least 24 hours. Now reassemble the engine with a new push rod and have fun.

Valve Springs:

Valve spring choice is determined by your choice of cam and lifters. The manufacturer makes recommendations based upon the cam profile (lift and duration, ramps and the acceleration rate of the lifter) and the lifter type (hydraulics behave differently than do solids, rollers are different again from flat tappets). You have to balance seat pressure with coil bind and open pressures. One size doesn't fit all (though head manufactures sell them as if that were true). You can have too much spring; which will wear out a set of lifters in no time flat, so you can't just pick the biggest strongest springs that will fit on the head.

The number of individual coils vary with the spring rate and the amount of room on the head for spring pockets. The more spring coils you can use the better as they tend to dampen spring harmonics and offer a progressive control over the opening valve. What the material the springs are made of effects their price (silicon steel, tool steel aka Vanadium, or some other exotic alloy).

Springs have a limited lifetime. The rate of compression remains constant (pounds per inch), but they sag or take a set with use. Heat and mechanical abuse (pitting, abrasion, corrosion) all take their toll over time. So expect to replace them.

You need to determine from the cam manufacture what is the recommended seat pressure, open pressure, installed height, and coil bind height. Then you can go shopping for the spring that meets your needs from any vendor based upon cost. The more springs in the stack the more it costs, and the bigger the OD of the spring pocket the bigger the wire can be to provide more pressure and still have room for multiple springs.


Big Dave
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af2
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5557
Location: grassvalley, ca
71191.50 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first thing is the squish! I am no gurue on NOS but I know this for sure! There are many more building points to make but I will leave it to Hanz and Bill to explain because I lack the so called customer relation aspect on this one! Did I say Squish?
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af2
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5557
Location: grassvalley, ca
71191.50 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Dave wrote:
I won't!

Valve Springs:

Valve spring choice is determined by your choice of cam and lifters. The manufacturer makes recommendations based upon the cam profile (lift and duration, ramps and the acceleration rate of the lifter) and the lifter type (hydraulics behave differently than do solids, rollers are different again from flat tappets). You have to balance seat pressure with coil bind and open pressures. One size doesn't fit all (though head manufactures sell them as if that were true). You can have too much spring; which will wear out a set of lifters in no time flat, so you can't just pick the biggest strongest springs that will fit on the head.

The number of individual coils vary with the spring rate and the amount of room on the head for spring pockets. The more spring coils you can use the better as they tend to dampen spring harmonics and offer a progressive control over the opening valve. What the material the springs are made of effects their price (silicon steel, tool steel aka Vanadium, or some other exotic alloy).

Springs have a limited lifetime. The rate of compression remains constant (pounds per inch), but they sag or take a set with use. Heat and mechanical abuse (pitting, abrasion, corrosion) all take their toll over time. So expect to replace them.

You need to determine from the cam manufacture what is the recommended seat pressure, open pressure, installed height, and coil bind height. Then you can go shopping for the spring that meets your needs from any vendor based upon cost. The more springs in the stack the more it costs, and the bigger the OD of the spring pocket the bigger the wire can be to provide more pressure and still have room for multiple springs.


Big Dave


Valve springs caused every problem with the motor you have! I would bet 85# max is all that is there! That causes the lifter to float. Install new springs at 125# with the lifters and hit the button every chance you get! Wink
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clay
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Joined: 24 Nov 2002
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Location: South Carolina
318129.23 points


1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one thing that bugs me is the rattle you heard. In the situation you are describing, it could have been detonation - high load, low rpm, high cylinder pressure with nitrous. How much timing retard are you running? What octane fuel? Squish is desirable, but is a function of combustion chamber design (there has to be a flat area in the chamber for this to happen - hemi's don't have any) and clearance between the piston / head at TDC. The idea is that when the piston aproaches TDC, it rapidly and violently squeezes the mixture in the cylinder into the open area of the chamber. This violent movement breaks up fuel droplets that have basically clumped back together while they traveled from carb booster to intake valve and makes the mixture burn better and make more power. It also helps the mixture be more consistent which is what I believe helps prevent detonation since you don't have a combustion chamber full of too rich and too lean spots. You are stuck with the chamber you have, so you got what you got and you have to be a little more careful with the tuneup. As far as the diesel oils, I think 2006 was the last year for the full ZDPP package. I think in 2007, they start reducing the ZDPP levels. I'm probably going to start running Valvoline racing or Schaffers. Clay
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10sec.et
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006
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Location: Houston,Texas
346624.78 points


1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clay wrote:
I think in 2007, they start reducing the ZDPP levels. I'm probably going to start running Valvoline racing or Schaffers. Clay


not trying to hijack the thread but what about the synthetic oils ? are they adequate for flat tappet camshafts ?

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It seems we can look at our magical Balls and come up with a fix?

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William Jones
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Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 820
Location: Lake city, FL
28456.50 points


1971 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rotella is a good oil for flat tappets and you can get it at walmart. That is what I use espeacially when breaking in a new flat tappet cam.
_________________
Take the horse out off the barn and let her RUN BABY RUN!!!!!

92 LX 454ci Clevor 9.24@142.53 N/A
71 Mach1 454ci Clevor 10.16@134 N/A 3850lbs race weight "Lost in fire"
03 Cobra Bone stock 12.42
68 Falcon 363ci 10.55@126 N/A
95 GT 363ci 11.08@118 N/A
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af2
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5557
Location: grassvalley, ca
71191.50 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave I don't want to say any thing against you!

With that said WTF? for the normal person we are Fuc"" . All is good for now? With the oil given Shocked
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af2
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5557
Location: grassvalley, ca
71191.50 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clay wrote:
The one thing that bugs me is the rattle you heard. In the situation you are describing, it could have been detonation - high load, low rpm, high cylinder pressure with nitrous. How much timing retard are you running? What octane fuel? Squish is desirable, but is a function of combustion chamber design (there has to be a flat area in the chamber for this to happen - hemi's don't have any) and clearance between the piston / head at TDC. The idea is that when the piston aproaches TDC, it rapidly and violently squeezes the mixture in the cylinder into the open area of the chamber. This violent movement breaks up fuel droplets that have basically clumped back together while they traveled from carb booster to intake valve and makes the mixture burn better and make more power. It also helps the mixture be more consistent which is what I believe helps prevent detonation since you don't have a combustion chamber full of too rich and too lean spots. You are stuck with the chamber you have, so you got what you got and you have to be a little more careful with the tuneup. As far as the diesel oils, I think 2006 was the last year for the full ZDPP package. I think in 2007, they start reducing the ZDPP levels. I'm probably going to start running Valvoline racing or Schaffers. Clay



Clay, look at the heads!
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Bocephus027
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Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 126

4536.20 points


1972 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clay wrote:
The one thing that bugs me is the rattle you heard. In the situation you are describing, it could have been detonation - high load, low rpm, high cylinder pressure with nitrous. How much timing retard are you running? What octane fuel? Squish is desirable, but is a function of combustion chamber design (there has to be a flat area in the chamber for this to happen - hemi's don't have any) and clearance between the piston / head at TDC. The idea is that when the piston aproaches TDC, it rapidly and violently squeezes the mixture in the cylinder into the open area of the chamber. This violent movement breaks up fuel droplets that have basically clumped back together while they traveled from carb booster to intake valve and makes the mixture burn better and make more power. It also helps the mixture be more consistent which is what I believe helps prevent detonation since you don't have a combustion chamber full of too rich and too lean spots. You are stuck with the chamber you have, so you got what you got and you have to be a little more careful with the tuneup. As far as the diesel oils, I think 2006 was the last year for the full ZDPP package. I think in 2007, they start reducing the ZDPP levels. I'm probably going to start running Valvoline racing or Schaffers. Clay



I was running 2 deg retarded with 91 octane.


As for the squish that the Cleveland heads don't have, that is a disadvantage that I am stuck with I guess, unless i was to switch out heads completely, which won't be in the near future but I will definatly be thinking about it. It shouldn't be the problem for bent push rods I don't think?

When i had more time tonight to look over all the damage, I found that the bottom of number 8's exhaust lifter was dipped in, and the lob on the camshaft had been worn and looked to be flat. So now I don't have to worry about mixing and matching. Hydraulic Cam, anti pump hydaulic lifters, new pushrods, roller rockers, and depending on what cam I get ill need the new springs also, the valve stems seem to be in good shape but can't tell until i get a compressor.
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disturbthepeace1
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Location: Stanton, CA
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1965 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do agree that the combustion chamber of your head is very detonation friendly. that said I don't think you planning on changing them. So your going to have to tune around them..

As far as fixing you problem. I look at situations like this as opportunities to make more power. And the valvetrain is the most important part of any high performance engine... I would defiantly start with a new cam and a suggest upping the spec a little(assuming your cam now is on the conservitive side)...
Your going to need to do a couple of things to optimize your combo..

1.) post some specs so we can all punch'em in our desk top dynos and all give different opinions of cam choice... (just stirring the pot a little)

2.) find out how much lift those pistons can handle. Install a light checking spring(jegs has them as well as summit) on one of you intake valves. Put the head back on w/o a gasket(your margin of error).. Set up a dial indicator(this tool is a great investment with a thousand uses, i suggest you get one) now you can just push down on the spring with your finger and get an exact measurement on how large you can go..

3.) Make some calls to different grinders, get a package with cam, lifters and springs and have a local machine shop go though the heads make sure there will be no future issues I.E. cracks, valve guide hanging up valves ect... and have them install the new springs...

4.) consider switching to a stud mounted rocker.(especially if you use a solid lifter) This will alow a more aggressive cam, more power, and reliability..

The only thing I would like to add is that consider a solid lifter, really IMO the only disadvantage is the maintance, and I see that as a reason to take a peak on how the valve train is holding together... It seems that with hyd lifters you don't know you have a problem until you have lifter guts scattered in the valley....

You probally can get away for cheaper but for one I don't like putting new lifters on a old cam, at best is just "bad karma"....

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Bocephus027
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Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 126

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1972 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I have decided to get the new cam package and all, but I don't think I will be able to afford to have any cam's specially made because of the budget. And I don't want to get into the crane cam or comp cam kits with springs and lifters, I am considering a Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 262/270, Lift .513/.520 with Dual valve springs, and the scorpion 1.73 roller rockers.


These specs?

351C CJ 4 Bolt Main 750 CFM Edelbrock Carb on top of a Torker 1 Series intake dual plane manifold
Appears as though bored out .040 over and has Hyperpuetic(sp) Pistons 3 inch stroke
compression 117 lbs
9.5:1
2 1/2 exhaust with headers

Current heads:

73-76cc
Valves Port Size
2.19" Intake 2.50x1.75" Intake
1.71" Exhaust 2.00"x1.74" Exhaust
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