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Looking for suggestion on engine build
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stock Chevy grocery getter stalls at about 1400, in the Corvette and SS Camaros have a slightly higher stall of 1800. The B&M converter is basically a stock GM Hi-Perf converter painted black. (Nothing wrong with that, it is just that there are other sources of the same product for less).

Once you get above the 2000 RPM stall we are talking about custom built stators (since none of the stock parts will work). The higher the stall and recommended horse power level of intended use (nitrous), the more custom it becomes. It eventually reaches a point at the top of the chart were the only stock part still used is the transmission case, and every other transmission part in the case and in the torque converter is an aftermarket piece made out of reinforced, billet, unobtainium (with a platinum $$$ price tag).

If your aspirations are indeed a 400 to 450 horse street car a near stock converter will work just fine. The problem I have observed over time is that no one is ever satisfied with "just" obtaining their goal. As soon as the bills are paid off from your last build you find yourself reading Jeg's and Summit catalogs in the bathroom instead of the other adult mags.


Big Dave
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96capriceMGR
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Location: New London Wisconsin
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1996 Chevrolet Caprice

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand a 3400stall like I have is NOT going to be good for a street driven TH350 but at the same time there is a lot of room between stock and 3400. A wellbuilt stall does not need to generate the heat they once did. Even intown where my converter can't lock it does not run hot, it aint cheap though. Before going with a B&M or even another GM converter I would call someone like Edge Racing Converters or Precision Industries(vigilante) both offer "performance" 12" converters.
Andre at Edge will custom builda 12" for a TH350 for $225 and help you pick stall, this converter he limits to 24-2600 stall, you could go say 2200 and have a good mix of drivability and performance.
The last two converters I bought were from him and the first one he charged me a very reasonable price to just go through it when I sold it to make sure it was in good shape yet. Both converters drove so well that several folks who have ridden in my car ordered from him within a month or two.
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gen1camaro
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would probably be less of whimp on the stall converter if I had the chance to test drive a car that had one. I just picture my self in seattle rush hour having to rev the car to get it to go two spots forward. I would like to be able to take it the 30 miles to work on the beautiful days like we have been having. I get pissed off enough sitting in traffic without the car adding to it. I know I have a lot of different expectations of the car but I need a lot of flexibility and fun with it. Its sounding more and more like 2000-2500 stall would be up my alley. Brothers firebird has a 2200 but he hasn't finished assembling it either to give a test. Friend at work says the car actually starts moving before the stalls setpoint it just fully locks up at that set rpm. True? Sorry for my ignorance but am learning tons everyday. Read up on camshafts today and my head is still spinning. I think I will be reading that chapter a couple of times. Kids soccer practice is a good opportunity to indulge in gear head studies. I am going to call the engine guy tommorrow and ask for specific on the heads and also tell him that I want to go with a light stall. I assume this will affect the choice of cams that he gives me to choose from. thanks again all. enjoy getting the new input.
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beersngars
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1948 Chevrolet Coupe

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="gen1camaro"] Friend at work says the car actually starts moving before the stalls setpoint it just fully locks up at that set rpm. True?

True. The car will just seem like the trans is slipping a little. I have a 3500 stall behind a BBC, and it's really not that bad. But let me also say my car is not a daily driver. A few folks mentioned heat, yes the trans will run a little hotter so a cooler is good and a deeper trans pan (more fluid) is another way of keeping the temp low. I have a cooler with a fan mounted under the car, deep finned pan and my temp never goes past 180.
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gen1camaro
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I called the engine builder today and found out the heads he is selling are rhs (pro topline?) cyclinder heads. They are all completely brand new and are an aftermarket cast. They are the 180cc intake runner, 72cc chamber, 2.02-1.60 valves, screw in studs with guide plates for $825. From what I see in the magazines they didn't seem to badly priced. The cam his is suggesting is 218in, 224exh at .050, .495-.502 lift 110degree sep. roller cam. This is planned to go with a 2000 stall. Does this sound realistic, way undersized, not matched ? Thanks Jeff
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96capriceMGR
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1996 Chevrolet Caprice

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My idle is about 825rpms and the car moves just fine at idle, heck it pulls against the brakes more than my wife's bone stock '03 Impala(the FWD ones). A couple years ago I was afraid of stall too then gave it a shot and have not looked back. I will honestly tow a small fishing boat with this car even though I have a mostly stock wagon parked next too it I could pull with.
I get funny looks at the track for a trailer hitch on a solid 12 second car and at the lake I get looks for the numbers on the window, the bad idle and helmet in the backseat Twisted Evil . The lifejackets fit in the trunk just fine ontop of the slicks Very Happy .
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SMOKEmUP
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1979 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what I have for the flow numbers for those heads. Flow numbers are at 28" water.

Lift----Intake------Exhaust
0.100-----58----------49
0.200-----113---------93
0.300-----163---------125
0.400-----203---------151
0.500-----231---------170
0.600-----247---------177

The flow numbers are pretty good for the port volume and should work pretty well. The cam is a good choice for a healthy street motor. The questions I have are: what is the final static compression ratio? Dynamic compression ratio? Quench height?

The motor with the right quench and DCR should make between 350 -375 HP.
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gen1camaro
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The phone conversation with the engine guy kept getting interupted by other incoming calls so I ran out of lunch hour to ask him all the specifics. I am going to print the post about DCR and take it to him on saturday along with some parts so I can get some specifics on deck height, gasket thickness, etc. I will post more soon as I know. I appreciate you looking up the flow numbers. If I can even get close to 400hp and be streetable I would be content, for a while, like big dave said you are never content. If am still prospering in a couple of years I may take that street motor out and build something alot more crazy for screwing around. Alot of it depends on if my son gets the car bug or not and takes to going to the track. So far he thinks its pretty cool.. but he is only 8. Jeff
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A cautionary note, if you will, I believe you mentioned this gentleman as being your only source for machine work in your neck of the woods. Most independent (self employed) machinists were tradesmen who have worked there way up from machine operator to tool and die maker before going off on their own (at least the good ones are). If he is the only game in town, and he probably knows this, he may become less cooperative with you if you make too many demands of his time, or challenge his "area of expertise" with questions on mechanical engineering theory.

Many of the more senior (thatís in old, like in a aged head of cheese) contributors on this board are degreed mechanical (or close enough) engineers who are used to specifying exactly what we want to a machinist, and are able to follow up and check the machinist's work with our own chest of precision tools like micrometers, calipers and dial indicators.

If you follow behind (metaphorically speaking) us talking about quench and dynamic compression ratios to someone who has a limited exposure to these things, that is a different matter. Respect is garnered not from talking the talk but walking the walk, as it were. We will be happy to work with you through the finer points of engine building, but you may have to work with the resources you have (in this case a single machinist to choose from).

To paraphrase old Sigmund Freud sometimes a machinist is just a machinist and not an engine builder. He may be eminently qualified to machine your parts with the needed degree of precision and perform the other needed operations (balancing the rotating assembly) required with out his having a clue as to the complete application of those parts to the mechanical engineering that goes into designing a high performance motor. A happy machinist in your neighborhood may well beat a much more qualified engine builder in an inaccessible location.

This message was my former managerial side talking not the racer who is never satisfied and always craves More!


Big Dave
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SMOKEmUP
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1979 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave...very good advise.

The hard part about this situation is the engine builder may become defensive. You want to rely on his strengths and experience in building this engine. Do not tell him how to build it instead request the engine be set up with the DCR and quench requirements you specify and point him to a web page with this information. (I've been meaning to do a write up on this subject. I'll try to put a web page together tonight on this subject)

A note of caution. If you are setting the engine up for a specific DCR you need to measure everything. DO NOT MAKE ANY ASSUMPTIONS. Do not believe the chamber size on the cylinder heads, MEASURE IT. Do not guess how far the pistons are in (out) of the hole, MEASURE IT. If you don't plan to do this then I wouldn't even suggest mentioning DCR. I can't stress this enough, you need to use the ABDC intake valve closing (IVC) point for the camshafts advertised duration NOT IVC @ 0.05 specs.


I'll bet you'll be surprised the next engine he builds will follow these guidelines.
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artinla
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1971 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave brings up a great point, and Smoke too. Don't nag the guy for things that aren't easily calculated.. Instead, just ask him for the following info and we can estimate the rest with reasonable precision:

1. What will the deck height be?
2. What will the bore size be? .030 over?
3. Which head gasket does he use? -Probably 1003 Fel-Pro.
4. Will the heads be milled at all? -Probably not.
5. What is the cam part number? -We can look up the IVC.
6. What pistons does he use? -Need to know the dome Volume.


He shouldn't be offended by or object to answering those 6 things.

I myself get tired of answering the same old questions, so I can understand what Dave is talking about. When you get to be an "Old Salt", you tend to be offended when people start questioning your knowledge. At least I sometimes do. It is all in the approach.

Art
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gen1camaro
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The machinist is actually not the only game in town, he is just the one name that kept coming up over and over from word of mouth with good references and reasonable prices. The fact that he is old school in appearance (and probably techniques) also appealed to me since he seems to really know his work and other than the stall converter issue seemed to be on the same page as me for the build. I acutally am driving past many other shops to go out to his place. But like I say, I am kind of weird about having people work on my stuff, being mechanic by trade I know how many unqualified knot heads there are out there being paid good money for work to be done. So when I relate good to someone with good word of mouth I tend to go with it. Having said that you all bring up very good issue about not offending the guy. He so far has been actually amused that I am trying to educate myself on building a motor and I don't think he will have any issue with me asking questions if I come from an educate me angle instead of a do you know what you are doing angle. In fact he was cool enough to agree to let me be present when he puts the crank, cam, #1 piston in and degrees the cam so I can get an idea of just what it all means. I think so far every conversation I have had with him has always came around to talking about the shitty fuel we have available and how its not like building an engine in the old days. I still have lots of confidence in him even though he is not up to date with the latest engine building techniques. I still plan to ask the question (nicely), so I can learn more about the dynamic compression ratio and how it comes into play. Once again I really appreciate your guys advice, sorry for the novels, I type kinda fast and they get long. Jeff
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af2
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1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

artinla wrote:
Dave brings up a great point, and Smoke too. Don't nag the guy for things that aren't easily calculated.. Instead, just ask him for the following info and we can estimate the rest with reasonable precision:

1. What will the deck height be?
2. What will the bore size be? .030 over?
3. Which head gasket does he use? -Probably 1003 Fel-Pro.
4. Will the heads be milled at all? -Probably not.
5. What is the cam part number? -We can look up the IVC.
6. What pistons does he use? -Need to know the dome Volume.


He shouldn't be offended by or object to answering those 6 things.

I myself get tired of answering the same old questions, so I can understand what Dave is talking about. When you get to be an "Old Salt", you tend to be offended when people start questioning your knowledge. At least I sometimes do. It is all in the approach.

Art


The heads are the best I have seen period! But the thing I see is the 72 cc chamber being to big giving you a less than 9:1 compression. The Dcr will be in the dirt with the cam period. I would use the 64 cc chambers in a heart beat to start with. With a 0 Deck and .039 gasket it will be very happy after the timing is correct. Another FYI
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gen1camaro
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know the block will be decked some since it was crusty from sitting in storage for god knows how long. I am kind of concerned that he may we may be building a motor a bit on the conservative side. I have no problem running premium in it if that what it takes to squeeze every last bit of performance on the build. I am going to see him on saturday so I think I will politely voice my concerns. I take comfort knowing the heads appear to be a good choice. Its not everyday I throw this kind of money around for a toy so I want to try and make smart choices and get bang for the buck. I we talked flat top .030 hypereutetics for the pistons. I was kind of set back when he said 72cc chambers since be around old school guys at work closed chambers and large runners/valves were always the hot ticket. A different machinist told me that flat tops in my 327 with the 64cc 1.94 heads were running roughly 10.5 to 1. Does that seem correct. No to be stupid but basically your just trying to find the amount of volume at bdc compared to volume (head installed), at tdc and divide the large volume by the small volume? I think thats what the taught us in trade school. Its been awhile since the votech days. Is that the same as dynamic compression ratio? I am shooting for about 9.5 to 1 correct? I just don't want any problems when its together, I keep hearing retarded timing makes an engine run hot and I don't want to have to back the timing off to prevent preignition. Thanks guys Jeff
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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
being mechanic by trade


sorry about this post but it annoys me when fellow techs refer to themselves as "mechanics". you are a TECHNICIAN!!!!

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