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I want a 454.
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artinla
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1971 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: I want a 454. Reply with quote

What do you guys think about the World Products small block 454?

It looks like you could build up a balanced short block for about $4000 going by Summit prices. Man that makes me want to go mow some lawns or something.

Any of you have one or thinking of getting one?
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af2
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1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: I want a 454. Reply with quote

artinla wrote:
What do you guys think about the World Products small block 454?

It looks like you could build up a balanced short block for about $4000 going by Summit prices. Man that makes me want to go mow some lawns or something.

Any of you have one or thinking of getting one?


Art, I wonder why? I have a big block 433 that I really don't want to change. My thinking is a good set of heads and let it screem. I know that is not the right way to think but it is for me. The motor spun 7800 with old school crap and would make way more oats today!
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theoretically the bottom end of a motor doesn't make horse power. So theoretically there shouldn't be any difference between a SBC 454 and a BBC 454 with the same cam and head size. If we we're racing dyno's then the weight difference wouldn't be a penalty, so that wouldn't be a consideration either.

I wonder if any one has ever done a direct comparison on these two engines using the same cam spec (remember the factory uses a dual pattern cam for the big block to compensate for the poor exhaust port), same runner sized heads (you can get SBC heads almost the same size as oval port heads now) to put the BBC vs. SBC debate to bed once and for all.

Any way I agree with af2 in that the difference in weight is due to the fact that you can twist a big block to 7800 RPM with a reasonable expectation of driving it home. I don't think the same can be said for the SBC 454. At least not using the same cast iron material parts that are used with the stock big block.


Big Dave
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Aerosmith
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I've seen you could never have a good clean comparison Dave, because of the need to raise the cam and spread the pan rails to be able to accomodate the stroke needed to get the cubes. That being said, I would like to see that match-up too. If I recall those World blocks are over $2000 bare, and then to get good quality pieces so the thing will live if you actually use it as opposed to it being a show piece is going to cost some bucks. Heck I have about $5000 in my 383 and I only paid $100 for the block. Just looked in Summits catalog, that 454sb from World is $11,000 complete!
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jonny_b
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just looked in Summits catalog, that 454sb from World is $11,000 complete!




For $11,000 just as well spend that on a 427 LS2, In my opinion, heck even buy a regular LS1 and supercharger!

_________________
1979 Camaro Z28
355 cu.in. 5-speed man.
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artinla
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1971 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not want a cast crank, the rotating assembly kits have 4340 cranks/rods. No way in hell I would pay $11,000, I was looking at the bare block plus the balanced crank/rods/pistons.

It is a small block, so cylinder wall shape retention might not be as good as a big block. That would matter a whole bunch if nitrous were installed. As for the heads, I agree that the SBC port sizes would limit somewhat the potential compared to a BBC.

However, I believe with the 4340 crank you could turn this engine 7000 or more. If so, I think the weight savings would be well worth the cost. Like Dave said, we don't race dynos. Hell I have over $3000 in my 355 short block with balancing, and the 454 would have cost only about a thousand more. Even at a modest 1.5hp/cu. in. That would spell a "free" 150 horses (over a 355) and I would be running a brand new thick deck/web block.

I have never been nor will I ever be a huge big block fan. They are just too heavy in my opinion, especially when you consider that a properly tuned small block can nearly equal them in power output. The only big engine that I like is the Caddy, which is only about 50 pounds heavier than a SBC in racing trim and can be pushed to 565+ cubes.

100 pounds off the front of the car should be worth about .1 to .2 seconds I would guess. Anybody know exactly?
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af2
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

artinla wrote:


I have never been nor will I ever be a huge big block fan. They are just too heavy in my opinion, especially when you consider that a properly tuned small block can nearly equal them in power output. The only big engine that I like is the Caddy, which is only about 50 pounds heavier than a SBC in racing trim and can be pushed to 565+ cubes.

100 pounds off the front of the car should be worth about .1 to .2 seconds I would guess. Anybody know exactly?


I knew that Caddy would be mentioned sooner or later. Laughing Myself I always liked beating the big blocks with my small blocks. That is why I went with the 377 instead of my 433. Rule of thumb is .1 per 100lbs Smile
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restomod
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

check with bowers racing engines in ft collins colorado.he is a great guy and can save you some money on your short block.he is building my motor now.
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art check out the numbers for the Buick 455 Wildcat. Weight is comparable to the SBC, over square bore/stroke so it revs like a 377, and with aftermarket heads and roller cam is pushing 1.43 horse per cube. Just thought you want to know that the General had more than one factory hot rod in the stable besides the fabled Caddy back in the days of luxury land yachts.


Big Dave
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artinla
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never really looked at those numbers, but they are impressive. The only problem is that they are very rare around my neck of the woods. I have several Caddy's and one is a big cube stroker. The torque is outrageous, but I would still rather hear a good small block singing in my ear. Something about a 5500 rpm maximum just doesn't do it for me.

Is the 455 buick like the other buicks that have the crapola rocker setup? What kind of aftermarket parts are available for it?

Hmm.. don't get me started. You'll have me in the truck surfing salvage yards all day. I need to finish my 355.
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is one lead
http://www.automachperf.com/PHRMEMC.html

Here is another 750 hp N/A with 400 additional available with NOS built for street racing in a Buick Skylark. Keep in mind these engines are the same size as a SBC and actually weigh about 30 pounds less.

http://www.taperformance.com/502_cid_stage_3.htm

Just be carefull someone doesn't sell you a 307 labled as a 455 as the engines are all the same size. The "Big Blocks" (400, 430, 455) all had the distributor in the front (small blocks are in the rear).
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artinla
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1971 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is sickening.

The kicker was that the one guy has an offset ground stock crank and they are pumping as much as 1100hp through it.

That must be one hell of a strong casting.
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Nate81camaro
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aerosmith wrote:
, I would like to see that match-up too.


Already been done - a couple years ago was it? Surprisingly the sb 454 out did the bb 454.....they said they got everything (cam,carb,intake, etc...) as close to eachother as possible. It was in either : Chevy High Performance or Super Chevy (maybe a different mag, but not sure....)
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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember the article but it wasn't an apple to apple comparison. Since the test was preformed by World products at the introduction of their new 454 SBC it tended to be slightly biased to favor the small block (really unabashedly lopsided comparison which even the magazine hinted at: wink wink). They chose to test the hydraulic roller cam that was optimized for their engine, but only spun it up to 5600 RPM (because the BBC went into valve float). The big block they chose wasn't a Merlin II block with forged parts, but was a stock Mr. Goodwrench motor with peanut heads and stock springs (which went into valve float for some reason) with a cam chosen to approximate the duration and lift of the World Products SBC 454 cam. They did run the same size carb, but since there isn't a Holley manifold made for the peanut port head they used an Edelbrock oval port manifold which didn't match the round port heads.

Any way you get the drift. A bunch of mismatched parts, with different compression ratios and cam and tested with one engine in valve float. Sounds like a fair test to me.

Big Dave
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af2
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Dave wrote:
I remember the article but it wasn't an apple to apple comparison. Since the test was preformed by World products at the introduction of their new 454 SBC it tended to be slightly biased to favor the small block (really unabashedly lopsided comparison which even the magazine hinted at: wink wink). They chose to test the hydraulic roller cam that was optimized for their engine, but only spun it up to 5600 RPM (because the BBC went into valve float). The big block they chose wasn't a Merlin II block with forged parts, but was a stock Mr. Goodwrench motor with peanut heads and stock springs (which went into valve float for some reason) with a cam chosen to approximate the duration and lift of the World Products SBC 454 cam. They did run the same size carb, but since there isn't a Holley manifold made for the peanut port head they used an Edelbrock oval port manifold which didn't match the round port heads.

Any way you get the drift. A bunch of mismatched parts, with different compression ratios and cam and tested with one engine in valve float. Sounds like a fair test to me.

Big Dave



I saved that magazine for this very reason. I can't find it anywhere. I'll say one thing, Dave is on the mark saying it was a bunch of mismatched parts. That BB was in valve float at 5000. And you wonder why the power went away like a brick? Always remember the valves are floating before the back fire occurs.
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