Home | Register | Login | Contact Us

 
Auto Math
Classifieds
Forum
Gallery
Games
Garage
Tech Articles
Utilites
 
FAQFAQ    SearchSearch    RegisterRegister    Log inLog in    Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Forum Subscriptions1/4 Mile Table 

New Heads

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    SMOKEmUP.com Forum Index -> Chevy - Small Block Gen 1
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
super72nova
Member


Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 23
Location: Naples, fl
1006.74 points


1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:37 pm    Post subject: New Heads Reply with quote

ive been hearing really great things about aluminum heads for the SB mines a 350 bored .030 over roller rockers, hydraulic lifters with a comp. cam and Elderbrock air gap proformer intake with stock heads what kind of power gains do you think i can get with alumi. heads? and any suggestions of sizes (intake/exhaust) or manufacturer? Burn Out
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
clay
Moderator


Joined: 24 Nov 2002
Posts: 3209
Location: South Carolina
318129.23 points


1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't necessarily get hung up on the aluminum head bandwagon. I would guess that generally they might make more power in a readily available form than iron because I would guess they get all of the R & D work, however iron heads can make basically the same power with work. What would you like to achieve now as far as power? Do you have plans in the future for a different motor combo? What kind of budget do you have? There are iron heads out there that will make a really nice improvement, especially if you have open chamber smog heads, namely Vortecs. 96capriceMGR and his friends are making great power with the iron headed LT1's which use the same basic port form from what I understand with cooling system changes of course. Anyway let us know what you want to achieve and we can give you more information. Clay
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
af2
Member


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5558
Location: grassvalley, ca
71227.76 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clay wrote:
Don't necessarily get hung up on the aluminum head bandwagon. I would guess that generally they might make more power in a readily available form than iron because I would guess they get all of the R & D work, however iron heads can make basically the same power with work. What would you like to achieve now as far as power? Do you have plans in the future for a different motor combo? What kind of budget do you have? There are iron heads out there that will make a really nice improvement, especially if you have open chamber smog heads, namely Vortecs. 96capriceMGR and his friends are making great power with the iron headed LT1's which use the same basic port form from what I understand with cooling system changes of course. Anyway let us know what you want to achieve and we can give you more information. Clay


Clay you are so right on this post. I had a friend with 2nd generation Bowties that leaked into the cylinders, He bought a set of Brodix heads that were way beyond his so they said:oops: After running the car that ran consistent 9.70s, his best time was 10.03. with the new and improved P.O.S. That is why I bought the less known ones. Laughing I am a proud owner of aluminum heads now. Hopefully there will be no more leaks I can't weld Evil or Very Mad The heads go to the port shop that isn't on the West coast to get a good job done.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
96capriceMGR
Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 814
Location: New London Wisconsin
20327.88 points


1996 Chevrolet Caprice

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point I have swapped to LT1 aluminum heads but ONLY because of the R&D that has been put into getting the most out of them.
I would still say iron can be a great choice and wish more companies would work on the R&D for them in my application, but the vast majhority of folks have been brainwashed into believing iron is junk you get some magical power benifit from aluminum Rolling Eyes which leaves little market for iron work and no market means no R&D.

Before this setup I was running stock b-body LT1 iron heads with a mild ZZ4 crate motor cam and went 13.2 at 101 in a roughly 4300lbs with me car. Those heads were the inspiration for the gen1 Vortec heads which are a great budget oriented Gen1 choice.
How fast are you looking to go and what is a rough budget? We can point you at something.

One big reason the aftermarket is so aluminum dominated is it is cheaper to setup to cast, so don't think the fact they all sell aluminum is because it is necessarily best.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
super72nova
Member


Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 23
Location: Naples, fl
1006.74 points


1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:14 pm    Post subject: I Might Be in Over my HEAD.. pun intended Reply with quote

im not looking for wheelies (yet). i just want some heads that i could pick up some power with im not realy worried about hp numbers. i just want to get cramed back in to my seat a little more. i geuss this is more of a down the road project i have some other areas i want to improve first, so as far as budget i dont kno yet. the real ultimate power
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
af2
Member


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5558
Location: grassvalley, ca
71227.76 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

96capriceMGR wrote:
At this point I have swapped to LT1 aluminum heads but ONLY because of the R&D that has been put into getting the most out of them.
I would still say iron can be a great choice and wish more companies would work on the R&D for them in my application, but the vast majhority of folks have been brainwashed into believing iron is junk you get some magical power benifit from aluminum Rolling Eyes which leaves little market for iron work and no market means no R&D.

Before this setup I was running stock b-body LT1 iron heads with a mild ZZ4 crate motor cam and went 13.2 at 101 in a roughly 4300lbs with me car. Those heads were the inspiration for the gen1 Vortec heads which are a great budget oriented Gen1 choice.
How fast are you looking to go and what is a rough budget? We can point you at something.

One big reason the aftermarket is so aluminum dominated is it is cheaper to setup to cast, so don't think the fact they all sell aluminum is because it is necessarily best.


I just bought a set of ProComp heads that are the mold ProTopline used. I can say they need a lot of work to equal the iron heads I am running now as far as ports! The only thing I will say is they would be a great street head for sure with a .500 lift cam!!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
96capriceMGR
Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 814
Location: New London Wisconsin
20327.88 points


1996 Chevrolet Caprice

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you say ROLLER LIFTERS, I am running mid .500s and that is low compared to what a lot of the other LT1 guys are running. A fair number are pushing over .600 with cams in the 220-230 range.

I think the few companies trhat put forth the capitol to cast iron are going to make sure they di it well, otherwise they will have spent a lot and then not sell enough to payback the investment.


There really is power in roller cams even just the hydraulic rollers, cost a few bucks, but nobody said speed was cheap.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
af2
Member


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5558
Location: grassvalley, ca
71227.76 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

96capriceMGR wrote:
Can you say ROLLER LIFTERS, I am running mid .500s and that is low compared to what a lot of the other LT1 guys are running. A fair number are pushing over .600 with cams in the 220-230 range.

I think the few companies trhat put forth the capitol to cast iron are going to make sure they di it well, otherwise they will have spent a lot and then not sell enough to payback the investment.


There really is power in roller cams even just the hydraulic rollers, cost a few bucks, but nobody said speed was cheap.


I agree on roller. A lot of people haven't been there because of previous problems that are not an issue now with the new rollers!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
artinla
Member


Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 233

8558.30 points


1971 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree on the roller cams. I am running a .565 lift mechanical cam with 254/264 @.050 and it takes miracles and witchcraft to keep it going. I am a complete dumbass for not changing it, but $$ were tight when I built that engine. You can make some good power for low bucks with a mechanical cam, but roller is the way to go if you can afford it.

On the heads, I have never been a strong proponent of aluminum over cast iron except that aluminum is easier to repair if you break one. All that hoopla about aluminum sapping more heat yadda yadda is just a bunch of baloney. There is no appreciable difference in the power potential of the two materials. Cast iron is probably best for street, because they are generally more rugged and you don't need to take special considerations for growth in valve lash, nor do you need to use special gaskets or washers. Aluminum has become my favorite for everything else due to the lower cost of the chinese/australian/whatever castings and easy repair potential. Those pro-comp CNC's on Ebay that Af2 bought are really nice. I can't wait to hear the flow numbers when he gets them done. I am just finishing up a full port job on some Sportsman II's and let me tell you that it takes an incredible amount of time and work to get a set just right. I have about 80 hours in these so far, with probably 8 more to go. I could have just bought the $750 CNC ones and gotten close to the same flow numbers with just a few hours of work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Big Dave
Moderator


Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2646
Location: Tampa Florida
119973.02 points



PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any aftermarket head will be bigger (not necessarily better) than a stock cast iron head. GM casts ten's of thousands of their heads a year so they have economy of scale in their favor when it comes time for bang for the buck. On the street, with lift at or below 0.400" lift you can not beat Vortecs with a stick. Once you go past that lift level then you are no longer concerned with street manners.

Gentlemen start your opinions!
Who makes the "best" head? Depends upon who you ask. Is aluminum "better" than cast iron. Depends upon how you define the problem. Iron is stronger; important when running other than normally aspirated were the head is actually lifting off the block. Cast iron is a cheaper material, but you couldn't tell that by looking at Brodix or Dart (this is were that economy of scale kicks in). Cast iron does hold the heat of combustion in the chamber longer than aluminum (if this were not true then there wouldn't be an appreciable increase in horse power on the dyno for engines running thermal coated pistons and chambers, which can be observed).

Aluminum as mentioned can be welded by anyone with a Tig or Mig welder (Sears sells them for under $200). Cast iron can be repaired but the expense is prohibitive even to fix a crack, and it is impossible for the major carnage associated with a dropped valve. Aluminum is easier to port (with the correct cutters and oil), so many backyard experts often hog them out till the hit water (not necessary or beneficial). Aluminum looks "cooler" than iron because only hot rods come with aluminum heads (personally I sit on my hood while negotiating, and the last thing I want is someone looking under the hood thatís why I have fiberglass inner fender panels).

So it isn't really that important what your heads are made out of, so much as the port size, port shape, and chamber size and shape (valve size is important too, but most aftermarket heads have 2.02" or bigger valves).

You need to figure out at what RPM you wish to cross the line with your engine (usually determined by your choice of stroke) and then size the heads and choose a cam that will optimize horse power in that range (for a SBC 350 were talking about 195 to 210 cc ports on average). The bigger the ports the higher you have to twist the engine to take advantage of the flow potential (remember when you were weighing the advantages of cast parts compared to forged?).


Big Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
af2
Member


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5558
Location: grassvalley, ca
71227.76 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Dave wrote:


Gentlemen start your opinions!
Who makes the "best" head? Depends upon who you ask.

Aluminum as mentioned can be welded by anyone with a Tig or Mig welder (Sears sells them for under $200). Cast iron can be repaired but the expense is prohibitive even to fix a crack, and it is impossible for the major carnage associated with a dropped valve. Aluminum is easier to port.

So it isn't really that important what your heads are made out of, so much as the port size, port shape, and chamber size and shape (valve size is important too, but most aftermarket heads have 2.02" or bigger valves).




Big Dave



The only reason I bought the heads I did was because the iron heads have a crack in the worst spot there is. The thermal efficiency of iron is far superior than aluminum. The chamber shape on the heads I bought are the same as my iron heads. That is my starting point. I wish I could say I paid $200 for my Squarewave Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
clay
Moderator


Joined: 24 Nov 2002
Posts: 3209
Location: South Carolina
318129.23 points


1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually I form my opinion on what the best head for my application would be and about 6 months later more information comes along and shoots me down - I stay lost on this subject. Currently have Sportsman II's bowl ported by me and AFR 227's for next project (the AFR's were perfect about 2 years ago, now I know there could be better Crying or Very sad , oh well.) Clay
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
af2
Member


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 5558
Location: grassvalley, ca
71227.76 points


1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clay wrote:
Usually I form my opinion on what the best head for my application would be and about 6 months later more information comes along and shoots me down - I stay lost on this subject. Currently have Sportsman II's bowl ported by me and AFR 227's for next project (the AFR's were perfect about 2 years ago, now I know there could be better Crying or Very sad , oh well.) Clay


Well I had a chance to really look at the heads I bought and guess what they are straight plug Mad . Called the company and will return them tomorrow. The problem is they don't have angle plug heads. So thanks to Clay Laughing I am going with the Dart Iron Eagle 230's. Weight is not an issue with this car but flow is. Probably the best thing that went wrong then right for me lately. I never looked at the Dart head flow #'s before!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
96capriceMGR
Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 814
Location: New London Wisconsin
20327.88 points


1996 Chevrolet Caprice

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The shops embracing technology are doing some suprizing stuff. I think most of you who have followed my progress will agree my car is making some serious power for what I have in it.
Heads are just 190cc after porting 2.00/1.56 valves, with good ports you don't need a lot of volume or big valves, they flow 202cfm at .300, low lift flow is so important.
The rest of the details are here http://advancedinduction.com/AiProductsLT1.html I have the second package. These heads have made 521rwhp on a race setup 383(computer limited to 7200rpms)through an 8" ATI converter and 4L60E. If you look around a lot of the old rules are being bent by newer technology. You could make these heads work on a gen1 motor but that might be a bit too much hassle to be worthwhile. I just posted it because to a degree it contradicts conventional thinking on what is necessary and might just get someones grey matter working.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    SMOKEmUP.com Forum Index -> Chevy - Small Block Gen 1 All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
Home | Contact Us | Automath | Cam Files | Dyno Search | Forum | Garage | Picture Gallery | Reaction Timer

Copyright © 1997-2016 SMOKEmUP.com All rights reserved.
Advertising Info     Disclaimer     Privacy Policy