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Aftermarket EFI, my humble opinions
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phydeaux
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Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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1997 Oldsmobile Aurora

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10sec.et wrote:
phydeaux wrote:
I would like to get into factory EFI tuning one day. Naturally I want to start with a PCM that has ZERO effing support (Siemens Simtec 5.g). I have the pinouts for the thing and the diagrams for the twin Infineon chips, but it looks like I will have to barebones reverse engineer the software from scratch. Lord knows I have plenty of time on my hands. :roll:


i dunno, tuning is hard enough on a factory system without handicapping yourself with something like that. its not impossible but i don't see how the ends justify the means. at best, you will spend countless hours working on an oddball efi setup only to have mediocre performance. sure its different but wheres the fun in spending more time working on something, with lackluster performance, than you do actually driving it. its a car. by nature, you're supposed to be driving it.


I'm going with the theory "if its broke, fix it. If its not, make it go faster". I had a thought last night on this: buy a junkyard pcm, de-solder the memory, and pull the binary file straight off the chip using an eeprom usb flasher ($100 on ebay). Modify to my hearts desire (specifically reducing torque management) and re-burn the flash chip. Re-solder, do a VATS & CASE learn and I'm in business. My only real hiccup is converting the binary file into something a human can use. I'm sure with the help of google that is a minor obstacle. And having a backup PCM to play with eliminates a lot of downtime.

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phydeaux
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1997 Oldsmobile Aurora

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, if you put together a weird package it would be nice to find a factory efi that was close and make it do whatever the hell you want. I.E. no separate engine/trans controller. Case in point: the 98-99 Shelby Series 1 used the Aurora 4.0 engine with a C6 transmission. It was controlled by an LS1 ECU and offered an optional supercharger. In my instance it would be nice to have full customization of ONE computer to control everything including future upgrades (upgrades pending lottery winnings). I'm also kicking around the idea of the Alpha you guys are building at the shop. Wouldnt it be nice to find a solution to use one controller on that thing? Even with boost and whatever trans is mated to that 4.0.
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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phydeaux wrote:
Al I'm also kicking around the idea of the Alpha you guys are building at the shop. Wouldnt it be nice to find a solution to use one controller on that thing? Even with boost and whatever trans is mated to that 4.0.


yep, the Holley HP Dominator Wink

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It seems we can look at our magical Balls and come up with a fix?

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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention that it took six or seven full time engineers a year and a half to reverse engineer Toyota's EFI system so that Banks could produce a hand held tuner to play with the factory ECU. That is a lot of work for minimal gain unless there is a commercial market to sell this to (and still fend off the legal claims from whoever wrote the initial software).

Big Dave
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SMOKEmUP
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10sec.et wrote:
phydeaux wrote:
Al I'm also kicking around the idea of the Alpha you guys are building at the shop. Wouldnt it be nice to find a solution to use one controller on that thing? Even with boost and whatever trans is mated to that 4.0.


yep, the Holley HP Dominator Wink


I've been kicking around the idea of the Holley system lately. Is the Dominator worth the extra money over the HP system?

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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, it has the ability to control a 4L60. so far, ive just used the HP. they have all been manual transmissions. we are finishing one up with the dominator and a 4L60. hopefully, ill find out how well it works within the next week. AFAIK, the EFI side is the same on both.
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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, we're going to be trying out the Quick Fuel EFI soon. ill keep everyone posted on the results.
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af2
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10sec.et wrote:
BTW, we're going to be trying out the Quick Fuel EFI soon. ill keep everyone posted on the results.


That will be interesting.....

A 67 Nova My Uncle is building I THINK is using the QF with the Hilborn..

Nothing like taking a completely straight 67 SS and making it an altered wheel base nostalgia AFX Car is Bad Ass....
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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam, can you get some more pics of that stack setup?
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af2 wrote:
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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

finally got a chance to tune the Holley Dominator. this one is setup with drive by wire. first thing to note is there is a safety feature that closes the throttle when the brake is pressed. my guy wired this input wire to the constant 12v side of the brake switch. this caused a max of about 10% throttle at WOT. drove me nuts trying to figure out why i couldnt get the DBW to work Evil or Very Mad . i wired it to constant ground. this defeats the safety feature but also allows you to footbrake the car.

the trans control works really well. took a little driving and tweaking to get the tune right but it shifts great. we had a bad trans to start with (GM crate trans) but once we got a good one, the tuning was pretty straight forward. it shifted well with the base calibration. i just needed it to do better. realistically, it could have been left alone.

one issue i had is harsh shifting into gear from P or N. usually it would stall. we have a stock converter and its a bit tight. there is no input for the ECM to compensate and kick the idle. theres no torque reduction tables for that either. i did cure it by dropping the timing just in the area it was idling/surging and kicked the timing up to about 29 in the 500rpm column to "catch" idle when it suddenly drops. its now a nice smooth transition.

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clay
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you got a foot brake solution worked out😈. Sounds like a really good setup. Good solution on the idle issue also. That would have been a piece of cake with weights and springs wouldn't it? I've got to get back on my wife's Mustang and learn some more about tuning EFI - too many projects. Clay
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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clay wrote:
Glad you got a foot brake solution worked out😈. Sounds like a really good setup. Good solution on the idle issue also. That would have been a piece of cake with weights and springs wouldn't it? I've got to get back on my wife's Mustang and learn some more about tuning EFI - too many projects. Clay


yep. wouldnt have had to think much about a mechanical advance.

what are you tuning that Mustang with ?

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10sec.et
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1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, time to resurect an old thread...

we've done a couple EFI systems since my last post. we did do the Quick Fuel EFI. its not a bad system but the down side is it isnt very user friendly. its difficult to learn how to use and the software is a bit clunky. we did two systems... one tuned out pretty well, the other fought us all the way. it was really frustrating using this system. it can work very well but its a lot more work than it should be.... IMO. hopefully, later versions have more features and a more modern set of tables. what i saw was comparable to my old LT1 stuff.

now, the latest system.... Edelbrock's new EFI.
i cant really say a whole lot because we just finished back to back TBI and MPFI installs for a magazine article. what i will say is this... both systems get two thumbs up. MPFI will always out perform TBI but that is the nature of the beast. Edelbrock really did their homework on these. they have to be the simplest, most straight forward systems to install and tune. now, that being said.... these are kind of in a league of their own. these systems seem to be made specifically for the average DIY hot rodder working out of his garage. that's a good thing! i wouldn't have a problem installing either on my car.

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SMOKEmUP
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's good news. I haven't had much luck with eddy stuff myself.

I have to give a R.I.P. to Vic Edelbrock Jr .

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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I know that my tuning my engines with a screw driver disqualifies me from offering any experience based suggestions. But having been reading this I am discovering that not only is there software differences between controllers, but that there are firmware (chip sets) differences as well.


As such I would offer an engineering suggestion that I learned at Apple. When I worked there we would emulate the MS DOS operating system on a Motorola chip set that didn't understand the first assembler instruction for a x-86 Intel chip set. Today the Mac is UNIX based and runs the current Mac OS as a kernel that can just as easily run a Windows kernel on the same hardware.

Why not write EFI engine controller that can run on a PC instead of just using the laptop to tune it. Fire Wire (serial) or USB3 (also serial) inputs can handle the speed needed to transfer the data in real time and the inputs from the sensors are all well established and easily monitored. If greater band width is needed there are 16 bit, and 32 bit parallel and 64 bit wide SCSI interfaces that could form the data bus if needed.

You can buy used laptops on Amazon for a fraction of the cost of a dedicated CPU that still requires a Laptop to tune it. Aside from the larger size of the laptop (which could be superceded by a i-Pad. Once developed you could retire off the sale of the copyrighted software and patented idea.

Big Dave
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