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Engine Debate
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Sumtingwong
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Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Enola, Pa
574.52 points



PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True.
I knew about converting to a dist. since I have replaced no less than three optis on mine.
The opti has too many drawbacks to keep. Cool
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disturbthepeace1
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Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 303
Location: Stanton, CA
10195.60 points


1965 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im sorry but I just don't understand why are you considering a caddy 500 over an all alum LS1? I know I said it was my preferred choice earlier but you said you wanted to road race it right? And while it doesn't look like a low buck build you def are not looking to spend a ton of cash, right? LS1/6 with a 6 speed will not only bolt in but make a ton of power with easy mods. Wiring and ecu mounting is gonna be easy, you also can take advantage of being able to use alot of factory parts. Your steering won't have to be changed and you won't have to have a high dollor oil pan made ( I would throw on a C5 pan with the bat wings for better oil control in the corners). Headers won't have to be custom either. You could spend a grand on a good set of custom caddy headers easy.

Also 4 gens have tiny engine bays and little hood clearance, a tall manifold on a 500 and youll be able to tune the secondaries from the drivers seat.

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af2
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
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Location: grassvalley, ca
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1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10sec.et wrote:
Sumtingwong wrote:
It's funny- Event though there's so much LSx stuff out there, the LT crowd seems to be fanatical, even with the dreaded optispark.



the optispark is a non-issue. do a search here and you will see what i mean.


F'N lol.
I need a new screen! LOL!
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Sumtingwong
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Joined: 04 Nov 2010
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Location: Enola, Pa
574.52 points



PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

disturbthepeace1 wrote:
Im sorry but I just don't understand why are you considering a caddy 500 over an all alum LS1? I know I said it was my preferred choice earlier but you said you wanted to road race it right? And while it doesn't look like a low buck build you def are not looking to spend a ton of cash, right? LS1/6 with a 6 speed will not only bolt in but make a ton of power with easy mods. Wiring and ecu mounting is gonna be easy, you also can take advantage of being able to use alot of factory parts. Your steering won't have to be changed and you won't have to have a high dollor oil pan made ( I would throw on a C5 pan with the bat wings for better oil control in the corners). Headers won't have to be custom either. You could spend a grand on a good set of custom caddy headers easy.

Also 4 gens have tiny engine bays and little hood clearance, a tall manifold on a 500 and youll be able to tune the secondaries from the drivers seat.



You make a good case.
When I was/am going through my options for motors, I kinda fell in love with the idea of having al that torque in an unusual motor for a 4th gen. I rationalized that I could say in a taller gear coming into of a corner and just muscle my way out and down the stretch. But- I just would've had to stay below 4200 in every gear.
Clearly, that's not really an ideal situation. It's also going to be a PITA to get in there.
If the power and torque from a 500 could've been had cheap enough, I was willing to make compromises, but it's just not worth it. I bought into the idea that caddies are cheap muscle.
No such thing. Shocked
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jeep_406
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Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 1661
Location: Tewksbury, Mass 01876
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1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're looking for torque I would go with the stock 400 stroke of 3.75 not the shorter stroke to make a 377. If you're naturally aspirated there's no replacement for displacement.

I can only talk of engines and how they relate to racing the 1/4 mile at the dragstrip. A real good motorhead friend built a 377 years ago and it ran decent but found that the 406 was quicker & faster. This was with a pump gas engine. Course back then you could run serious compression on the street and get away with running pump gas. My 406 back then had 12.7-1 with cast iron heads.
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Sumtingwong
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeep_406 wrote:
If you're looking for torque I would go with the stock 400 stroke of 3.75 not the shorter stroke to make a 377. If you're naturally aspirated there's no replacement for displacement.

I can only talk of engines and how they relate to racing the 1/4 mile at the dragstrip. A real good motorhead friend built a 377 years ago and it ran decent but found that the 406 was quicker & faster. This was with a pump gas engine. Course back then you could run serious compression on the street and get away with running pump gas. My 406 back then had 12.7-1 with cast iron heads.


In a 3500lb car with a solid rear axle, I'm giving away speed in the corners right off the bat. They'll outbrake me going in, so my best answer for that will be torque.
This won't be a hardcore track car, (who has that kind of money?) but when you start a build, you have to pick a direction. so I decided to go that route. It'll have all the usual lgoodies, eventually- Subframe connectors, full cage, adjustable panhard bar, tube Kmember, yadda yadda. It'll be lowered an inch and half, the rear quarters have been widened by 3 inches, the front 2 inches. 18x12's out back, 18 by 10's up front, vette rotors and calipers.
Autocross is a good place to start to work out the bugs, and since it has a 3:23 rear and you never really get past second, even first gear, I'll need torque.
My best bet so far will be the LS, or a 400- Later on, I want to take the 400, de-stroke it and crank up the boost with a supercharger. Supers don't have that lag, and the 377 will draw boost into itself and go screaming down the straights into the 6500-7000 rpm range. At least- That's what I envisioned when I started this.
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clay
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Joined: 24 Nov 2002
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Location: South Carolina
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1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to agree with disturbgthepeace1 and vote for the LS series. Before I finished my latest build I honestly thought about selling what I had and starting over with a LS based engine. Parts have gotten cheaper and the production parts are really so good, you don't really need to go any farther than them. Case in point, you can buy a new block for less than $1000, the L92 (hope I got this right) heads as cast will outflow my AFR 210's for also around the $900 mark. If you compare this to an aftermarket block (may be stronger, but the iron 6.0 has been proven at the 1000 h.p. level) for the Gen 1, you will save around $1300 in heads and block alone. Then engines are popular enough now that rods and pistons are basically a wash in price and it looks like the cranks are still a little more expensive, but not that much. This is if you wanted to build one. I like the idea of getting a used engine and basically running it as is with maybe a cam swap. That gets you out on the track sooner having fun and as you will find out, power isn't what you need in the beginning anyway, getting the car setup will take some time and a basic motor is fine in the beginning. Let us know what you decide, sounds like a fun project. Clay
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squeeezer
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Location: new richmond WI
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1991 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would find an lsx engine too
a 6.0 or 6.2 to be specific

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SMOKEmUP
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1979 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My vote is for an LSx motor as well. I plan is to put an LSx motor in the 79Z as soon as I get the time and money.

It's hard to beat the flow numbers of the LSx's. These are the flow numbers for my LS6 heads CNC ported by TEA. Total cost was $1400 including porting.

Lift ..... Intake ..... Exhaust
.100"..... 66.6....... 50.5
.200"..... 137.7..... 116.8
.300"..... 215.1..... 165.6
.400"..... 258.3..... 226.3
.500"..... 300.1........ 246.2
.550"..... 312.0..... 251.4
.600"..... 320.2..... 256.6

You can get now get the L92 heads ported by TEA that flow 353 cfm intake, 264 cfm exhaust @ 0.600" lift for $1529.00 including the core. It's hard to beat the new LSx stuff for performance or cost.

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TSHACK
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Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 414
Location: NOR CAL
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my 2 pennies worth. I'd stay with the Lt 350/383 platform. If your on a tight budget. Due to the fact that, If you use a different engine platform, You'll be loosing funds on the change over, That could go into your engine( kind of a moot point on a 4th gen but still). But if you can afford it go with the lsx platform. geezzz crate motor with more power at just over half to 2/3rd the price of race engines in the 80's FWIW.
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Skunkworkx
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 352
Location: Harford Co. Maryland
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1968 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

406ci SBC here and very happy with it. I've been running this motor for over 15 years (new crank and bearings a few years ago) As this motor has been through a few combos (and cars Smile) there has NEVER been an overheating issue (untill a blown head gasket Sad N2O) Hell, I don't even have the steam holes drilled in the heads.

I'm now looking at bigger/better heads (230cc and 300cfm+) as I was looking at going to an LS motor (new) but between the cost of the motor and the install kit I could do a nasty SBC.
Now with work being on the slow side and Christmas around the corner (10 y.o.daughter home) I'm looking at doing just the heads this year and maybe the bottom end next year ????

Cam up the LS motor(used LQ9,LQ4 ?),stick a carb on it with an MSD box running the coil packs....10's shouldn't be too hard.

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SundayForever
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your best buy for your car in terms of a small block motor (or for one up to 7 liters 427 or cid) would be an LS-x engine built on a 6.0 liter block (the 6.2 liter all aluminum block would be the best one to buy, but also the most expensive, as they are out of less than two year old 'vettes).
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squeeezer
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1991 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lsx or bbc Cool
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Knarley Darley
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am pretty sure the caddy engine will not fit in the engine bay. I would stroke the engine you have, and port the LT1 heads, or better yet a set of LT4 heads which are a little better and then you are not reinventing your car. If the budget will allow, we just built a 10.5 to 1 383 with AFR 215 heads right out of the box, a hydraulic roller cam with 255ish duration at .050 that made 613 horsepower at 6500 rpm, and a little over 500 pounds of torque at 4200. At 5500 rpm it was making over 550 horse, and the torque was still in the high 400s!
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William Jones
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Location: Lake city, FL
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1971 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would go for the LS motor it is amazing how much power you can make with stock parts and getting the weight off the nose will help in the corners. I use to run my 03 Cobra at SCCA races and it always pushed in the corners because of the weight of the iron block and suppercharger I had to use throttle to rotate the car and it cost time and wear on the tires. But it was fun LOL

Bam

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