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AFR Heads Oiling Issues
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SMOKEmUP
PostMaster


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1979 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: AFR Heads Oiling Issues Reply with quote

Since I've had a couple requests for this I dug up 86GN's pictures of the machine work he needed to do in order to correct the oil puddling issues on his AFR heads.
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Heads before machine work:


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Oil puddling in corner


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Oil on back of intake valve


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Result of oil in the combustion chamber


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Machine work to heads. Drain back path from the bottom of the spring pad and along bottom edge to side drains.


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Machine work to heads. Drain back path from the bottom of the spring pad and along bottom edge to side drains.


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Machine work to heads. Drain back path from the bottom of the spring pad and along bottom edge to side drains.
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240Z8
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Smoke!

Last tech I taked to said he had no idea what I was talking about.
I wish there was a class acton suit to at least cover the remachining.

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96capriceMGR
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could choose good heads, pay less and not have to modify them.
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lun40119
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did you figure the oil came from in the tops of the valves. I am not familiar with the problems you had from this engine.
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Skunkworkx
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1968 Chevrolet Camaro

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would it be OK to bring this up with Tony Mamo ?

I don't care for AFR much anyway.

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lun40119
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1967 Chevrolet Chevelle

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

96capriceMGR wrote:
You could choose good heads, pay less and not have to modify them.


I really don't care what brand the heads have stamped in them, if there is oil on the back of the intake valve, it isn't because of bad drain back. Either intake leak, or guides, or rings. Some of the roundy round stuff fill the pass valve cover, and you don't hear them screaming that they are getting too much oil in the chambers. There is more to this equation than just AFR SUCKS. So lets drop the advertising crap, save that for the kiddie forums.
1 Bad ring seal, 2 bad intake seal, 3 poor geometry wrecking guides.

My new rocker arms have spring oilers, they will be spraying oil right at the springs, and seals.

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96capriceMGR
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, forgot AFR is the ONLY good head made and they are gods head, simply putting one in the trunk will shave 5 seconds off you ET.
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lun40119
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never run them, so I really have no opinion of them.........actually now that I think of it, I have only seen one set. They are on an LS1. I have seen alot of darts, and even more Brodix's though. But, if they were really truly junk, I don't think they would still be in business. It is hard to manufacter junk, and stay in business long, I don't care how good your marketing team is. You and I have also had this conversation fifty million times. No I don't think that a generically ported head is the best for every application, but it doesn't mean that they are worse than anything else.

Furthermore, you agree that a properly ported aftermarket casting will pound on a ported factory head. Agree??????

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ericnova72
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lun40119, you are correct, this is not an oil puddling problem. Rolling Eyes
The big red flag I see is the intake gasket. You CANNOT use the Fel-pro Permatorque Blue gasket with an aluminum intake and/or aluminum heads. This gasket is made for the expansion/contraction rate of iron-to-iron combinations. It will not recover(rebound) from the increased expansion rate of the aluminum parts and will leak oil into the intake runners after very little run time.
Didn't anybody read the instructions that came with the heads or the intake? It gives the part #'s for the correct style of gaskets to use, they have to be Fel-pro Print-o-seal or equivalent.
I can't count the # of times I have seen this mistake. I'd bet $100 Tony Mamo will tell you the same thing.
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MufflerBearings69
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1968 Ford Galaxy

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericnova72 wrote:
lun40119, you are correct, this is not an oil puddling problem. Rolling Eyes
The big red flag I see is the intake gasket. You CANNOT use the Fel-pro Permatorque Blue gasket with an aluminum intake and/or aluminum heads. This gasket is made for the expansion/contraction rate of iron-to-iron combinations. It will not recover(rebound) from the increased expansion rate of the aluminum parts and will leak oil into the intake runners after very little run time.
Didn't anybody read the instructions that came with the heads or the intake? It gives the part #'s for the correct style of gaskets to use, they have to be Fel-pro Print-o-seal or equivalent.
I can't count the # of times I have seen this mistake. I'd bet $100 Tony Mamo will tell you the same thing.


Maybe I am just clueless, but I had never, ever heard that.

My issue is, for the FE engines nobody makes a better intake gasket- hell even a different one- that I know of. I know, its pissing into the wind to build a big block with so little support, but I like 390s and I like my 390 and so I make it happen...

I've never seen any instructions regarding the intake gasket material, only some that say part#xxxx from so-and-so matches the port dimensions

so without print-o-seal and an aluminum intake on iron heads am I just destined for sucking oil down my intake runners? Shocked
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SMOKEmUP
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First this isn't my motor, it's someone on the site, 86GN. Another respected member on this site "Bill Jones" has also run into this problem and corrected it the same way 86GN did.

Also the oil puddling issues corrected the problem and to my knowledge he used the same type of valve seals used before and after which indicates the machining corrected the problem.

I'm NOT saying AFR manufactures junk. I simply posted this because I feel it's useful information for other racers.

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robins44
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anyways these are the "old" afrs that suffered from core shift correct? The new eliminators dont suffer from this do they? Or am i wrong?
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ericnova72
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the FE: Fel-Pro Print-o-seal #1246 for low riser and #1247 for medium riser. Call the companies and ask a tech, they will tell you. They may not specify the material in their instructions, but the part #'s they give are never for the Permatorque Blue gaskets. Lots of people "get away with it" and have no problems, but those of us that have seen the same "leakers" more than a few times know what is up. Used to even be a note for this in the Fel-pro master catalog. Mr. Gasket also makes a line of gaskets in this style, as did Detroit Gasket( now ROL I believe).
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MufflerBearings69
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome piece of info! I had the same type gaskets in my 302- the 1250 on the stock heads and now the 1262 for the larger ports... I wasnt aware they made an FE gasket I hadnt found it.

So now to get a set on order for the manifold swap! Thanks again!
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clay
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1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a set of the older AFR 227's that I sold and never ran and now I run a set of the Eliminator series 210's. The old casting definately had a deep spring pocket with no way for the oil to go anywhere. It would keep the valve seal flooded with oil the entire time and they ran the teflon seals which to me aren't the best. The new design casting has a much shallower spring pocket and uses a rubber style valve seal which is attacking both of the problems the older heads had. I will say one thing in 96capriceMGR's defense on AFR heads. I searched around a little and it seems like AFR came out with the LT1 head in the early - mid 90's. Since GM dropped production of that style engine they didn't put any effort into continously improving that particular head. As we all know, things have to improve to keep pace and it looks like they fell short on this head. Clay
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