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Nitrous must have brung out the weak spots w/pics
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Bocephus027
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Joined: 27 Mar 2006
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1972 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:57 am    Post subject: Nitrous must have brung out the weak spots w/pics Reply with quote

Before going for a run with nitrous today, I checked my engine because it was rough, I pulled all The plugs and number 8 wasn't working, I found that it was getting spark and all that was good. I took off the heads and loosened the rocker arm and the push rod popped off to the side, long story short I took the heads and manifold off and found that the lifter had busted apart and the pushrod was busted in 2 places, and the bottom of the rocker arm with the valve was pretty beat up.


I also believe other lifters are now domed where it contacts the Cam, and I am not sure if that is normal.

To tell you the truth I don't know where to start, Roller Rockers would be nice, new pushrods and lifters, or do I need a new cam too. I am still not sure what type of pistons I have either, they have .04 stamped on them and have quite a bit of carbon buildup on them.


Thank god for Christmas money.



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pro60chevy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see where using Nitrous had anything to do with what happened to your engine.
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clay
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1972 Chevrolet Nova

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you were turning higher rpm with nitrous, it shouldn't have anything to do with your problem. It would make more cylinder pressure for the exhaust valve to open against, but really with the small shot you are using, that amount should be trivial. The snap ring probably came out of the lifter when something changed to let all of the preload go away. The bottom of the lifters should be slightly convex, or the middle slightly higher than the edges. If it's concave, it's not good. If the lifters are o.k., I would get roller rockers (even cheap ones are good with the hydraulic cam) and good pushrods and call it a day. I would guess a failure in one of these was the cause of the problem. Clay
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GrandSportC3
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1968 Chevrolet Corvette

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pro60chevy wrote:
I don't see where using Nitrous had anything to do with what happened to your engine.


I hope that it didn't as I'll be running nitrous soon myself...
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Hanz
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2003 Dodge Ram

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you post a closeup pic of the bottom of the lifter?
Did a valve touch a piston (is there a mark in the top of the piston?)
Is the valve stuck in the guide(can you push it down at all,even if you have to step on it with your foot?)

Hanz

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Big Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than step on it (which could get more sand and grit in your motor) I would recommend taking the spring off of that cylinder. Besides the springs in the head could have upwards of 160 pounds seat pressure which is pretty stiff to push down against with any measure of sensitivity. What Hanz is trying to determine is if the valve stem has become bent by contact with the piston. Without a spring it should move freely in the bore of the valve guide, and when rolled across a flat surface such as a piece of glass should stay in contact along the bottom as it rolls.

A concave liter and a round lobe indicates a wiped (destroyed) cam. But a slight round appearance is a properly worn in cam. It is all a matter of degree. The lobe should appear flat on top and the lifter should be barely concave when a flat edge is placed on the bottom of the lifter, or no more than 20 m over what was ground in by the cam manufacturer (you will need a new lifter for comparison).

All flat tappet cams suffer from reduced ZDDP in current motor oils (search for this topic for more info) and since no manufacturer has built a car with flat tappets in the past fifteen years the oil companies are changing the blend of chemicals to meet EPA guidelines and the market's needs (there are too few aftermarket cams out in the world to make a special blend for them so I have been advising people to use diesel rated oils (CC CD CE API rated)

API Motor Oil Wear Test standards as of 12/06/00

Wear - High Temp_____Avg. cam & lifter wear____20 m, max.
Wear - Low Temp_____Avg. cam wear___120 m, 127 m max.
Not required for oils___Max.cam wear__________380 m, max.
containing ≥0.08 mass phosphorus in the form of ZDDP
Note that GM dropped the API maximum wear limit requirements at the 7-26-00 PCEOCP (an oil manufactures convention and party).

Your lifter may have pumped up from high revs and pushed the retaining clip out the top (high oil pressure will do that). Once it fell apart the plunger was no longer sealed and the push rod can wobble around and get bent. Bend it often enough, fast enough, and it will break (just like breaking a coat hanger wire by bending it). You have to consider buying new springs or a rev limiter and turning it down a notch or two as valve float is very hard on parts.

Twenty-one out of twenty-four motors I have lost (blew up) have been due to high RPM operation were I have bent valves, or broken springs due to valve float. I don't know if you can afford to learn the way that I learned, that good valve springs are actually cost effective (that means as expensive as they are they are still cheaper than a new motor).

Big Dave
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Hanz
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2003 Dodge Ram

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Dave wrote:
Rather than step on it (which could get more sand and grit in your motor) I would recommend taking the spring off of that cylinder. Besides the springs in the head could have upwards of 160 pounds seat pressure which is pretty stiff to push down against with any measure of sensitivity. What Hanz is trying to determine is if the valve stem has become bent by contact with the piston. Without a spring it should move freely in the bore of the valve guide, and when rolled across a flat surface such as a piece of glass should stay in contact along the bottom as it rolls.

Big Dave


His heads are off the motor, so no danger of getting sand in the motor, plus I figured he would wipe his feet off first Wink

With a hydraulic cam I would hope he doesn't have any more than 125#, and with his single springs I bet he is lucky to have #100, which can easily be be pushed down with one leg. I know its crude, just a quick test to check for a galled valve stem which locks the valve in the guide. I figure if he had a spring compressor he would have already done that before posting here. Of course it sounds like his best bet would be to run it by a machine shop and have them check it over. Can only do so much online.

Hanz

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Bocephus027
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1972 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was the nitrous because it had made a rattling sound that i thought was my spedo from the pace for about 5 seconds, and it felt as if my timing had reduced, also this is a run in which i used nitrous in drive (i forgot) So I don't think it was from too high of a rev.



I took a look at the lifter, and It was convex, the middle was slightly higher then the edges, I was assuming it was supposed to be flat.



Hanz: the top of my piston being shiny, it was because some antifreeze got in there and it took a little carbon off when i was cleaning up.
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William Jones
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1971 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the NOS was the cause. More than likley it was A part failure possibly A weak spring which allowed it to go into vavle float at a lower rpm then caused the lifter failure. Big Dave is right on the money about valve springs I have tore up some parts due to valve float and going over the limits of what my original build was intended to run. While you got the heads off I would go a head and change springs you can change the other ones on the car by pressurizing the clylinder but you will need a spring compressor. Some times parts fail and when you are pushing a motor things like that are going to happen. If you do need a valve let me know I have plenty of stock one laying around. Later Bam
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Bocephus027
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1972 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I am probably gonna need new rocker arms a whole new set of lifters, and I checked the valves and it wasn't stuck but im gonna go buy solevant and put it in the port to see if it leaks past the valve to see if i need new seats or if the valve is bent i was told, but ill need new springs and push rods.


Is there a big difference from sticking with the Pedestal rocker arms or the stud mounted, it would cost about the same for roller rockers getting Pedestal or converting to Stud Roller Rockers.



Also, can anyone tell what type of piston's these are, are they hyperneumatic (spelling?)



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af2
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pistons look like factory cast with that big arrow. Looking at the heads: how did ford ever get away with making a no squish head? A head with a squish( pre 72' ) would be the one I would run using NO2 to cut detonation. And use anti pump up lifters to end this from happening again. Stud rockers are my choice any day so you can adjust the preload. Don't forget to use the same thickness head gasket when putting back together.
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Bocephus027
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1972 Ford Mustang

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

af2 wrote:
The pistons look like factory cast with that big arrow. Looking at the heads: how did ford ever get away with making a no squish head? A head with a squish( pre 72' ) would be the one I would run using NO2 to cut detonation. And use anti pump up lifters to end this from happening again. Stud rockers are my choice any day so you can adjust the preload. Don't forget to use the same thickness head gasket when putting back together.


Would anti pump lifters reduce my RPM range or limit valves floating.
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Paul P
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first thing that came to mind is the Oil missing the very important additive ZDDP. Big Dave did explain it well. That is why the lifters on flat tappets take a beating these days.
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af2
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1933 Willys Coupe

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bocephus027 wrote:
af2 wrote:
The pistons look like factory cast with that big arrow. Looking at the heads: how did ford ever get away with making a no squish head? A head with a squish( pre 72' ) would be the one I would run using NO2 to cut detonation. And use anti pump up lifters to end this from happening again. Stud rockers are my choice any day so you can adjust the preload. Don't forget to use the same thickness head gasket when putting back together.


Would anti pump lifters reduce my RPM range or limit valves floating.


It increases the rpm because they don't float the same as the stock ones! It gives you a margin of error when over revving.
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Hanz
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, antipump lifters usually (if not always) have a 'real' c-clip to hold the plunger in, instead of the wire one.

As much as we like to diagnose and figure out what happened and why, sometimes you just can't figure out what happened first, you just have to make sure things are correct, put it back together and go again.

Hanz

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